Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 15th, 2010

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

You also talked about things like tires, and brought up the subsidized pop and so on. Are there other types of things that you saw in the old program that really drove home how this thing had kind of gone off the rails?

[Leona Aglukkaq, Conservative, Nunavut, NU]

There's stuff being shipped that is not food. These are real stories. I have my colleague here, Senator Patterson, who also heard testimony from northerners. They buy their tires in Ottawa, or Ski-Doo parts, or lumber parts, or snow machines, and ship them through food mail subsidy.

At the end of the day, the program resources that we do have really need to focus in areas like that. There are stories of that nature throughout the north. Lumber is another example.

So it was really to try to get those concerns heard. I think what's being implemented now reflects the concerns we heard time and time again from people who use this program.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

I think it's so important that now we're looking at the focus being on health. Basically, then, why has it taken so long for this to take place?

[Leona Aglukkaq, Conservative, Nunavut, NU]

That's a good question. I can say on the consultation that, as health minister for Nunavut, I presented the information to Minister Strahl in May 2008. It was actually the last month that I could fly, because I was eight months pregnant. I was trying to get the message from northerners to the federal government to change the program.

I think within the timeline, that information was presented. I mean, there was consultation with other Canadians as well, but we were asked at that time. From 2008 until now, we have been able to roll out the program very quickly, but we needed to do the necessary background work to make sure the retailers and whatnot were onside to ensure there was the smooth rollout of the new program.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

I think one of the other things that was talked about was the consultative process. Are you satisfied there's been a sufficient consultative process in trying to reform this program?

[Leona Aglukkaq, Conservative, Nunavut, NU]

Yes. Nunavut's the largest user of this program. There are 25 communities in Nunavut. My riding is larger than the province of Ontario. This is the core of how we bring our goods to the north.

Am I satisfied with the consultation? Absolutely. I've met with mayors in 25 communities and I presented this situation. There was a unanimous resolution put forward from Nunavut mayors on the need for it to change.

The previous territorial government mandated us to lobby for improvements to this program because we were seeing the health indicators in our population due to unhealthy eating habits. That was the previous government. And Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated, a number of stakeholders throughout the north, not just in Nunavut but throughout NWT and Yukon, provided written submissions as well.

Four years is a long time to consult.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

I'll have to hold it there, Minister.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Mr. Dreeshen and Minister.

I think we've got time for a few more questions while the minister is still with us.

This is a five-minute round, and we'll go to Ms. Neville.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

You talk about this taking so long. I just want to let you know that this committee actually raised it with Minister Strahl in November 2007, so we're pleased to see it here.

Given your commitment to the program--and you mentioned earlier that you have read all the testimony the committee has heard to date--based on the testimony that we've heard so far, and that you have read, do you have any additional recommendations you would make to enhance the program or make it stronger?

[Leona Aglukkaq, Conservative, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you for that.

First of all, based on what I have read, it's concerning to me that nobody talks about the consumers--the elders, the people who can't afford these types of prices in the stores. There's a lot of talk about the retailers and the airlines and the trucking industry and Canada Post, but nobody talks about the person: the person in the stores paying these kinds of prices and trying to stretch their dollars as far as they can, particularly in Canada's Arctic. That concerns me. I think that should be the focus of this committee: how we ensure that the consumer gets the best price for nutritious, affordable food.

The second point is that in terms of going through some of the testimony, there are some things that are not quite correct and that we need to continue to make sure we correct and promote. There is a perception out there--and there is some lobbying going on where there's a bit of fearmongering--that prices will escalate. That's really not the case.

In fact, because it's cheaper to ship through sealift, I'm convinced that the prices we see on our shelves for things like diapers will actually decrease. The example I gave was 23¢ per pound, versus $2.50. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the math on that. And that's shipping from Montreal to Iqaluit.

So there is that kind of perception and misinformation. We're going to have to work on getting that information to consumers. People are frankly quite fearful that it's going to get more expensive. In going through this process, we've really looked at making sure we mitigate any of that and that the subsidy is being passed on. Again, I think that is not reflected.

I really believe that information going forward really reflects the number of recommendations across the north that I have heard. But on an ongoing basis, we will also have the mechanism for input through the advisory committee. I am hopeful as we roll out the program that the advisory committee will be able to tackle those issues immediately and not wait for 30 years to address them.

In that way, I am quite satisfied that what is being proposed is in the right direction.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I haven't very much time, but I have two quick questions, and they probably don't have quick answers.

First, have you appointed the other members of the advisory committee? We're fortunate to have the chair here today. Have other members been appointed? Could you advise us?

Second, have you or your department developed measurements, criteria, to show the potential impact on individuals of having access to healthy food, nutritious food--you're concerned, as I think we all are, about the consumer and the individual--and what the impact will be on health?

[Leona Aglukkaq, Conservative, Nunavut, NU]

On the appointment process, we ran a public ad campaign, which I believe closed sometime in August. Those names are currently being reviewed. The Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs will be making an announcement shortly on the remaining board members.

In terms of the initiatives undertaken through Health Canada on nutritious food and whatnot related to prenatal, as an example, and diabetes, a number of initiatives have been undertaken to focus on healthy eating. Of course, to actually eat healthy food, you need affordable food.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

That's my point.

[Leona Aglukkaq, Conservative, Nunavut, NU]

So in my view, this would tie in nicely with many of those initiatives already being undertaken through Health Canada and across the first nations health branch as well as PHAC.

Again, ultimately it's the access piece that was missing from many prenatal and diabetes initiatives and things like that.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

So you have some kind of measurements in place.

[Leona Aglukkaq, Conservative, Nunavut, NU]

Yes. It will be a long-term....

Perhaps you can speak to that quickly.

[Kathy Langlois, Director General, Department of Health]

Yes.

In terms of evaluation, we have a number of plans. For each of the contribution agreements we'll have for the retail and community nutrition initiatives linked to this program, there will be annual reporting about what has actually been done. Ultimately we're looking at special studies that will look at raised awareness, raised knowledge, and raised skills with respect to how to buy healthy food and prepare it. The studies will also look at the changed practices people have around healthy foods and communities. We'll be doing special studies as well as our annual reporting.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you very much, Ms. Neville and Minister.

Now we're going to go to Mr. Clarke for five minutes. He will be followed by Monsieur Lemay and Mr. Payne.

Let's go to Mr. Clarke for five minutes.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for coming.

I'd like to thank the staff for coming in as well.

This is a 50-year problem that's been affecting northerners. I have communities in the north that are also suffering. Back in 2006, Minister Prentice was the minister who wanted to bring these changes forward. In budget 2010, the government committed an additional $45 million over two years, which brings the total funding up to almost $60 million.

Minister, you mentioned a really good point: this is for food, not for snowmobiles, not for timber, and not for vehicle parts. This is a program that was out of control. I think with the committee here we have to get this thing back on the rails and deal with the nutritional issues facing northerners as a whole. All these vehicle parts can be hauled in on the regular freight liners and ocean liners during the season.

My colleague Mr. Bagnell brought up an issue here, a good concern, with regard to Old Crow in the Yukon. I'm just wondering, on the points he raised, how the concerns of Old Crow are being addressed.

[Leona Aglukkaq, Conservative, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you for that.

I'm going to have the staff elaborate on that, but we did address the concerns of that community.

Do you want to elaborate?

[Patrick Borbey]

Okay, and my colleague can help.

Old Crow is the only community in the north that doesn't have regular access to sealift or a winter road. Therefore, it is an exception for that reason. All other communities, normally, in a given year, have winter roads or a sealift or both. We have designed the program to allow non-perishables and non-foods to continue to be shipped to Old Crow to recognize that.

Now, if the situation were to change, if a sustainable winter road were to be built, then of course we would want to make sure that it was used to ship those products.

We've been talking to the chief. We've been talking to the community. In fact, we are going to have people actually go and visit the community and sit down directly with them to talk about their concerns.

Jamie, maybe you can add to that.

[Jamie Tibbetts]

The weaknesses of the former program were things related to accountability: being able to track what was being shipped and being able to report on some of the health indicators and whatnot. The current program will start addressing that.

Old Crow will still be subject to the same accountability framework as other communities, but the personal orders situation will exist. They'll be able to order from anywhere off that list, not just from Whitehorse, for instance. It will allow the market forces to adjust and ensure that supply is available to people.

The situation there is a little different in that we have the airline doing the shipping and acting as a retailer, so we don't have the level of control around what's being shipped and the data we would get elsewhere. So I think that when we go to sit down with the community, the representatives from the North West Company and other companies will be with us to help explain how this will work and how it will benefit them as it will benefit everybody else.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

During our testimony we heard from some large-chain retailers on the pricing. From my point of view, it looks like some of the retailers didn't do adequate planning when this program came into place. Now the people who have to purchase the products are suffering because of the retailers' misjudgment.

I'm wondering about the small, independent retailers and how this is being addressed.

[Patrick Borbey]

The vast majority of the retailers are under three companies: the Arctic Co-operatives, the North West Northern stores, and La Fédération des Coopératives du Nouveau-Québec. They represent probably about 95% of the businesses we'll be working with. The other 5% are in the hands of some of the small independent retailers. Some of them only have milk or fruit products. They would probably be better served, instead of trying to order by themselves through the airlines, by going through a southern-based retailer and using the personal order feature to work that out.

There is one independent retailer in Kuujjuaq, the one that posted the price increases...and I need to tell you that this independent retailer was advised, just like everybody else, of the changes. There have been three sealifts to Kuujjuaq, including one that sailed after the price increases were posted. The cost per kilogram for diapers to go to this community is about 37¢. It costs $2 to the taxpayer and $1 to the retailer per kilogram to have the same diapers shipped by air. Both the retailer and the taxpayer are losers because of the less than efficient decisions made at the retail level.

This program is about making retailers accountable for their decisions--accountable through their communities but also accountable through the program. So the competitor of that retailer ordered through the sealift and has the same diapers at the regular price next door. Again, the market forces should prevail. Don't buy diapers from the retailer who didn't manage his affairs properly.