Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 11th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Thanks so much.

Mr. Clerk, I see Mr. Wise has joined the panel. Are we good with the sound check?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Naaman Sugrue]

Could he unmute, perhaps introduce himself and let us know where he's calling from? The interpreters will let me know.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Mr. Wise, can you go ahead?

[Amichai Wise, Counsel, Legal Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Good day, Mr. Chair. Please accept my apologies. Apparently these technical issues were beyond my control. Again, my apologies, and thank you for having me here today.

[The Clerk]

I'll ask him to move his microphone up between mouth and nose level. Then I think we'll be okay going forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Okay.

[Amichai Wise]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Okay, we are good to go, Mr. Clerk.

Mr. Wise, thanks for joining us.

We will go now to Madam Bérubé for six minutes. Please go ahead.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am speaking from the traditional territory of the Cree and the Anishinaabe peoples, in northern Quebec. For the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP), it is a territory outside Quebec.

Let me turn to the representatives from the RCMP.

What is your real mandate in terms of provincial contracts and indigenous communities?

Where do you draw the line in your relations with the provinces and indigenous communities?

[Insp Jeff Preston]

I'm sorry, that was a little bit garbled in my ear. Could I have the question repeated?

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Yes, of course.

What is your role and what is your mandate in terms of provincial contracts and indigenous communities?

Where do you draw the line in your relations with the provinces and the indigenous communities?

[Insp Jeff Preston]

Thank you for the question. Again, if Staff Sergeant How wants to jump in at any time, feel free.

Our mandate from a provincial standpoint is to enforce all federal and provincial statutes within the provinces that we're contractually obligated to provide policing services to, including first nations communities, so it's important to note that we do go to see each first nation community. Not every community has a community tripartite agreement, so it is imperative for detachment commanders to go to each community to get to know the community and to understand what the needs are for that community with regard to policing.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

What problems have your relations faced in this process?

[Insp Jeff Preston]

Some of the problems that I personally experienced were due to the fact that we transfer around a lot. As has been mentioned by Staff Sergeant How and me, relationship building is imperative, so when detachment commanders or personnel in the detachments move frequently, it takes time to develop relationships, to develop that trust. Everyone on this call can well imagine that.

There has been mistrust by first nations communities of the RCMP and any other policing agency. In the past, police have been used to enforce the government policy of the day, such as residential schools, and that has led to years of mistrust—understandably so—and it takes time to break down those barriers.

Having time with your communities and understanding their needs has been a major hurdle, as well as having bylaws and regulations that are enforceable in some cases and non-enforceable in others, and it is very confusing for the community as a whole, not to mention the members who are enforcing those laws.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

The pandemic has certainly made the process more cumbersome in terms of certain principles.

Do the communities trust you?

[S/Sgt Ryan How]

I might be able to chime in on this one.

Again it comes back to the relationship between the detachments and the communities.

You had previously asked about difficulties in enforcing on a first nation or any conflicts. In my experience, when provincial legislation such as the Wildlife Act comes as what may be considered overstep on treaty rights, we've definitely come into some conflicts there between different pieces of legislation. Similar to dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic, it all comes down to relationships and being able to mediate those concerns with the detachment. Usually the detachment commander and the detachment members work out solutions before it becomes a bigger issue.

I relate that back to the COVID-19 pandemic, because we were very sympathetic and concerned that cultural activities still be able to take place on the first nations within the public health order.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Earlier, you mentioned that you signed protocol agreements in January 2021.

Did those agreements improve things?

[Insp Jeff Preston]

Again, each community is different. Not all communities have signed agreements with regard to COVID-19 and not every community even has a community tripartite agreement, a CTA. The communities that I serve do have that agreement in place, for the CTA at least, but we do not have a COVID-19 bylaw, although we do work closely with each of the nations here.

I believe we've built up a level of trust and understanding, and when there have been issues specifically surrounding COVID-19, we've been able to effectively mediate them. There have been some bumps in the road, but in my experience, it's the relationships that have made the difference, not the bylaws.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Thank you for the responses.

We'll go now to Ms. Blaney for six minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair.

Thank you for your presentation today. It has been very helpful, as have the questions you've answered.

I'll go first to Inspector Preston.

You spoke in your introduction about the fact that you have three first nation territories that you work upon. Could you talk about your experience in some of the hurdles or concerns you have when enforcing the various statutes and regulations, as well as bylaws and laws on first nation communities? Can you also add that context of how you deal with three different communities and the challenges that this situation might present?

[Insp Jeff Preston]

As I've stated, in each contract province in which the RCMP is the police of jurisdiction, there are over 100 statutes and regulations that we're expected to enforce. Unfortunately, not all of those regulations or statutes are applicable on reserve.

I'll give an example. Here in British Columbia, the B.C. Motor Vehicle Act, a pretty standard act, is not applicable on all roads within reserves. For example, in one of the communities here, on one of the roads going into the community, the Motor Vehicle Act applies, but as soon as you turn off onto a different road, still on the same reserve, the act doesn't apply. It becomes very difficult.

As officers, this is what we do for a living, so we get to know where we can and cannot apply the law, but it becomes very difficult to explain to the general public, and it builds mistrust when a member of the community calls and reports that so-and-so is driving when they know they're not supposed to be. We say, “Well, actually that doesn't apply on that road; please call us when they actually go over to a different road.”

As I say, it's very difficult to explain to the general public and it leads to mistrust and a loss of community confidence in their law enforcement.

With regard to band bylaws, it becomes even more difficult because of all the things we've talked about already, such as what it takes to enact the law itself and for the chief and council to actually come up with the law, because they have to work with lawyers. It gets to be very expensive, and then it comes to the enforcement. Who will enforce it; and if we do enforce it, what mechanism do we have in place for a dispute? If someone disputes that they were breaking the bylaw, who is going to hear that? Who's going to be the prosecutor? Who's going to be the judge?

It all becomes very complicated, and a lot of times communities do not have the capacity to roll with that.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

I guess part of my frustration is that I keep hearing this part about relationships. I really respect the work that so many RCMP are doing in that outreach, I've also heard from the communities I represent that they'll have somebody in place whom they really trust and feel comfortable with—I think Mr. Vidal talked about that with Staff Sergeant How—and then when they leave, it really breaks apart that core relationship. It's always this job of rebuilding.

I'm not sure if you have a solution to that. I'm just wondering whether there is development in the RCMP on how to build these relationships. Are there systems actually coming into place to work on that?

[Insp Jeff Preston]

I don't know if Staff Sergeant How wants to touch base, but I can quickly speak.

We do have some training, but one of the biggest things, as I said, is those individual relationships. Yes, we do transfer around, and that's just the nature of our work. The hope is that the trust is there and that if I leave and I'm a trusted member, the next person coming in can build upon that relationship and is not starting at ground zero.

When you have a breakdown in that relationship, as we've had in the past as a result of the enforcement of unpopular or unjust laws, such as the residential schools, it takes a long time to start building up those relationships. We hope that people start to see past the uniform, see the individual who's wearing the uniform, know they can trust that person, and won't dwell on the fact that they may have had a bad experience with that uniform in the past.

With regard to how we fix transferring around, I don't have an answer for that.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Can you tell me about a time when you worked with a first nation community to implement an Indian Act bylaw? How easy was it, and was it successful?

[Insp Jeff Preston]

Thank you for the question.

I've been policing now for 25 years, and in every one of the detachments I've served, I've had the privilege of working with first nation communities, both treaty and non-treaty. This has afforded me the opportunity to work with first nations on enacting of Indian Act bylaws. I'd like to say it's been an enjoyable procedure, but it has not. It's been fraught with a lot of issues.

As an example, I worked with a first nation community with an intoxicant bylaw here on the west coast. The community has been long suffering from alcoholism, and they wanted to rid the community of alcohol. I was there for three years. It took over three years to just get it to the point where they could vote on it.

One of the pitfalls was that the community did not have the legal expertise to draft the bylaw, so they ended up having to utilize outside legal services, which were very expensive for a community that did not have a lot of money. Then, from that point forward, they also didn't have the capacity to have the dispute mechanism in place.

At the end of the day, even though the law was passed, it became somewhat unenforceable. For the police to enforce it, we have to have a mechanism for someone to dispute. When it isn't there, it falls apart. Also, they did not have the support, I guess, of the Public Prosecution Service to prosecute that bylaw.