Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 11th, 2021

[The Clerk]

I can hear you well, Captain Durant.

Yes, Mr. Chair.

[Robert Durant]

Captain Guay will give her presentation first, and I will conclude, if that is agreeable.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

That's okay. Fine. We're ready to go, then.

Captain Guay, please go ahead.

[Marie-Hélène Guay, Captain, Officer in Charge, Municipal and Indigenous Community Relations Services, Sûreté du Québec]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

Thank you for inviting me to appear before the committee today.

I am Captain Marie-Hélène Guay, the officer in charge of the Municipal and Indigenous Community Relations Services, at the Sûreté du Québec.

I will introduce the police services offered by the Sûreté du Québec in indigenous communities. I will also tell you about our good practices.

Quebec has 55 indigenous communities, 44 of which are served by the 22 indigenous police forces. The Sûreté du Québec provides services to 11 indigenous communities. Indigenous communities receive the same services as other municipalities and communities served by the Sûreté du Québec. The services provided to indigenous communities are based on the principles of community policing.

It is important to note that seven communities have a public safety committee. The committees help identify issues and determine public safety priorities. They also make recommendations to the band councils in the communities.

As a national police force, the Sûreté du Québec has a role to play in communities that have their own police forces. Its role is essentially to assist the indigenous police forces in a number of ways, such as operations, investigations, specialized services, and administrative or management support.

On average, the Sûreté du Québec receives more than 500 requests for assistance per year. It is important to note that the Sûreté du Québec and the indigenous police forces regularly co-operate on the various operations under way in terms of road safety, investigations, intelligence and surveillance activities.

As for the sharing of responsibilities within the Sûreté du Québec, strategic coordination and partnerships are the responsibility of the indigenous community relations division. The division is composed of 12 indigenous liaison officers, deployed across Quebec by nations. Some of the indigenous liaison officers also work in urban areas. Their role is to develop and maintain ties with elected and non-elected members of the communities, to identify the public safety needs of the communities and to respond to them with tailored solutions or programs, to advise the managers of the Sûreté du Québec and to focus their actions in the indigenous environment and, of course, to act as facilitators during events or operations.

Operational coordination is the responsibility of another unit, the emergency measures unit. This type of coordination takes place during the deployment of special operations, situations or conflicts, and in the assistance provided to indigenous police forces.

It is important to note that services for the 11 indigenous communities we police are provided by the local police stations.

Let me now tell you about the services provided to indigenous people outside communities. As you know, from a cultural safety perspective, many cities have a strong indigenous presence and many of them are served by the Sûreté du Québec. These cities have the services of urban indigenous liaison officers who, along with other members of the Sûreté du Québec, co-operate on a regular basis with the indigenous friendship centres in those cities. The Sûreté also sits on the local urban service accessibility tables for indigenous people.

We are also in the process of creating joint teams called ÉMIPIC, or joint response teams of police officers and community workers. Two of those teams are already in place in our territory.

In the next three years, we also plan to create four other teams. The teams of police officers and community workers are the avenue of choice for responses to people in vulnerable situations.

We also have the joint indigenous community police station (PPCMA) in Val-d'Or. My colleague Captain Durant will tell you about this great initiative.

[Robert Durant]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members of the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs.

Let me introduce myself. I am Captain Robert Durant. I am a police officer with the Sûreté du Québec and the director of the Val-d'Or Service Centre.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity today to present to you what we have put in place in Val-d'Or in order to promote relations with the first nations and to improve our responses with vulnerable people.

For a number of years, the City of Val-d'Or has been dealing with various social problems, particularly the situation of vulnerable, socially marginalized clients, affected by drug addiction, mental health problems, poverty and homelessness. This vulnerable clientele includes a number of indigenous people from various communities in the region.

Since 2015, the Sûreté du Québec has been working to find alternative solutions to ensure public safety, to help vulnerable indigenous and non-indigenous groups, as well as to actively participate in citizen reconciliation. The objective is to find sustainable alternatives that are in line with the values and culture of both the indigenous peoples and the population of Val-d'Or, in compliance with current laws.

In November 2015, the Sûreté du Québec launched its first response model. We hired a social worker and set up a joint response team of police officers and community workers, known as ÉMIPIC. At that time, the team was composed of one social worker and one police officer from the Sûreté du Québec, both female.

The ÉMIPIC was set up to work with those who were the cause of repeated police actions and calls because of disruptive behaviour or criminal acts. The target clientele has vulnerability factors such as drug and alcohol dependency, mental health problems or homelessness.

The role of the ÉMIPIC is a second-line service in assisting police officers of La Vallée-de-l'Or RCM when the situation involves a vulnerable, intoxicated, homeless person or a person who is likely to become so. Its role is also to help mitigate certain interventions through an adapted and integrated community approach. If necessary, the team takes over in some situations that require referral to specialized resources other than those of the legal system.

In addition, the ÉMIPIC patrols the sensitive sectors of La Vallée-de-l'Or in order to prevent potentially objectionable conduct and to assist those likely to engage in it.

The ÉMIPIC quickly realized that it could not meet the needs of vulnerable people in the area on its own. In November 2016, the management of the Sûreté du Québec announced the creation of a pilot project for a joint indigenous community police station, the PPCMA, located in downtown Val-d'Or.

Since the station was created, its achievements have helped to improve the partnership between, and the work with, various organizations and public services, and to effect alternative and sustainable solutions. These are in line with the values and culture of the indigenous people as well as the population of Val-d'Or, and improve ties with all the residents.

The entire response philosophy of the PPCMA is based on an essential premise: partnership and communication. In order to establish joint responses, co-operation, partnership and consultation between those involved are essential. The objective is to promote a community approach based on the real needs of the vulnerable clientele. Through this approach, tailored and targeted responses seek to achieve sustainable management of each case. The helping relationship seems to be more effective because the concerted actions focus the resources towards a common objective: the needs of the people.

What distinguishes the PPCMA is the implementation and application of the ÉMIPIC approach by the staff. Targeted second-line or upstream responses, proactive work separate from and complementary to the traditional patrols, and a case management approach seek to direct the clients to appropriate services other than the legal system.

In July 2019, the PPCMA was formalized as a permanent station of the Sûreté du Québec. Our team is now composed of a station director, 11 police officers, four social workers, from the partnership with the Centre intégré de santé et de services sociaux de l'Abititi-Témiscamingue, and a civilian receptionist.

Starting in 2018, we were also able to count on the services of a civilian indigenous employee and an experienced indigenous police officer, both female and both on loan from the Anishinaabe community of Pikogan. These loans certainly enhanced the services provided by the PPCMA. However, due to a lack of resources in the communities, the loans had to be discontinued in the fall of 2020. Requests have been made to the two neighbouring police forces, but they are also affected by the labour shortage.

Through our philosophy of response, connection, partnership, and sensitivity to indigenous culture, we have been able to make a difference in our community.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to introduce the PPCMA.

I will provide the clerk with four links to YouTube videos. You will be able to see the merits of the PPCMA in our community.

Thank you for your attention.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Thank you both for your testimony.

Members of the committee, because we were late getting started, I'll need a motion to extend the meeting past the hour of one o'clock. Also, there are a number of constraints on many of us. I'm on House duty and have other duties coming up, so I'm going to suggest we do the full six-minute round and a bit of a shorter round on the five-minute round.

Could I have a motion to extend beyond one o'clock?

Thank you, Ms. Blaney.

(Motion agreed to)

We'll move now to the six-minute round of questioning, starting with Mr. Viersen.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank our witnesses for being here today. Mr. Cox, thank you for showing up on such short notice.

The crux of the issue that we're trying to get at is specifically the enforcement of band laws, band-specific laws that might be different or might be specific to a particular community. I'm wondering if you have any examples of how you deal with those. Also, with regard to the prosecution of offences under those laws, is there some sort of mechanism that is community-specific, such as a community court or a community tribunal of sorts for redress of these issues?

Mr. Cox, would you comment?

[Chief Dale Cox]

Thank you. Yes, in all the years of my first nations policing, this has always been an issue.

The band bylaw is looked at basically as the bottom end of the legal system. You start with your Charter of Rights and Freedoms, go through your federal statutes and your provincial statutes, and then you get to your bylaws, which are mostly involved in municipal policing.

In first nations policing, they look at band bylaws as well. Bands absolutely have the right under the Indian Act to enact them. The problem is, as everybody has said before, with the prosecution.

Even with the Indian Act, the federal statute.... I have gone on at least on three occasions to three different public safety prosecution people who were assigned to Alberta to see if they would prosecute things like trespassing under the Indian Act. All three told me that it wasn't a priority and that they would need further direction from Ottawa before they would utilize resources for prosecutions under the Indian Act, so that was a non-starter.

What I've done in working with our first nations is that when we talk about band bylaws, we have to sit down and first of all ask what that they want to achieve from this. From that, possibly I can find another way to get around that. Perhaps either provincial or federal prosecutors will take it on because another statute federally or provincially can be applied. In some cases, that's not possible. I have one nation that has started bylaws, and they've committed to fund the prosecution of those bylaws because there is no one else, which means that before I lay a charge, I have to be able to know that due process will take place. There are areas in there that are a problem.

We do utilize the Indian Act for things like trespassing. We lay the charge. We release them on long form information with conditions that they have to meet until they get to court. Then, if they breach those conditions, we can rely on the Criminal Code.

Yes, it still is a problem, and I think a possible solution is an overall look at a first nations justice system whereby the crux of what we're trying to get to and the results we're trying to get can be resolved in the nations themselves.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Yes, that's precisely what I was going at—whether it is a possibility for them to have their own court or tribunal. That would be self-administered, I suppose. It would be their own essential justice system. Is that what you're saying?

[Chief Dale Cox]

Within first nations, they have a right to self-govern, and self-governance should include a justice system. First nations aren't saying that they want to leave Canada, that they want to leave all of this. What they're saying is, “We recognize we have problems within our nations. We also know how to fix them. Let us fix them. We will stay within your framework somewhat, but some of that framework has been going on for over 100 years and hasn't worked. Maybe take a look at something different.” That would be restorative justice practices and using culturally traditional types of things to address it. What it has to come out to is that all parties agree that this is not right, that this is what's wrong, and that this is what needs to be fixed.

Now, how do we move forward and go from there? I met with my board of chiefs two weeks ago, and they now want to start serious conversations with the federal government for the next move in our justice system.

The first was our police service. We're concrete. We're established. Now they want to move to the next steps of the justice system, have their own courts, have their own prosecutions and have their own ability to set laws that can work within their nations.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Okay.

Part of it is that I'm running a little bit blind on this issue. Is there one area that perhaps we haven't considered but you would say is something that our study should include, something that we're struggling with? We're maybe blind to something.

I was wondering if you had any other suggestions.

[Chief Dale Cox]

The one I'll have deals with all first nations policing. It's basically that in dealing with first nations, we have to remember that they are not all the same. Every first nation has its own issues, and they want to discuss those issues. They don't want somebody else to speak for them.

Three months ago I was on a conference call with a federal minister that was asked for by the first nations chiefs of the province of Alberta. One of the things that came out from all of the chiefs on there is that if you want to talk to us about our justice system, about our policing, come and talk to us. Don't talk to the Assembly of First Nations. They don't represent us. Talk to us, because we each have individual cares that can be addressed and are probably simple to fix, but you've got to come and talk to us or you're bringing us solutions to problems we don't have.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Cox.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

It's just about time there, Mr. Viersen. Thank you.

Mr. Powlowski, you have six minutes.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I'm going to be quoting from a website I found, the Olthuis Kleer Townshend website. It's a legal firm that does a lot of work with indigenous communities. They talk specifically about this issue of bylaw enforcement on first nations.

Let me cite from them, because I think it's a good summary. It says:

While section 81 of the Indian Act allows bands to make on-reserve by-laws in areas including traffic control, residency, public health, and intoxicants, and while some of these by-laws can include penalties such as fines and/or imprisonment, the Indian Act does not specify whether the provinces/territories, federal government, or First Nations themselves are responsible for prosecuting by-law infractions. Lack of federal and provincial/territorial coordination or leadership on this issue has led to a situation where oftentimes neither federal nor provincial/territorial levels of government are choosing to prosecute these laws.

I'm thinking Chief Cox is the one to address this to. You've been doing this for 40 years. I hear a lot of frustration from both the indigenous community and the police services about not enforcing the bylaws.

This law firm makes some suggestions, and you've been around, Chief Cox, long enough to maybe know about this. What about section 107 courts? Under the Indian Act, the federal government has the power through section 107 to create federally appointed justices of the peace for the prosecution of bylaws on reserve. I looked up section 107, and it's really there.

In 2004 the Harper government halted the practice of appointing section 107 justices of the peace. The federal government has never resumed this practice. They also suggest the possibility of these bylaws being prosecuted by the province. Apparently in Ontario that was the case, but funding was removed for that.

The federal government could reinstate section 107 courts. Do you have any familiarity with those? I've heard and I understand your other suggestions, but there seems to be in the Indian Act a mechanism that we're not using.

Do you have any comment on those courts?

[Chief Dale Cox]

I'm not 100% familiar with that, but what you said makes sense. I do see a lot of bylaws being dealt with through a justice of the peace type of format as opposed to provincial or federal court judges, who are tied up, as we all know, with more serious cases, and more of them. However, this situation could be dealt with that way.

I also see—and again, this is something that needs some research—the possibility of going back to what we did when I started policing 40-some years ago. On minor provincial statutes, and in this case maybe bylaws, the police themselves prosecuted those, so we didn't have to have a prosecutor. We brought police in to prosecute, and the courts or the justice made sure that the process was fair and that it followed the parts of the law that needed to be followed and that a decision was rendered.

Those are areas that we may have to look at. I know our nations want a full justice system, but this may be how we get started in showing that nations can police and run their own courts and look after their justice systems within their nations.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

This has been a very interesting day. We've heard about problems of unclear jurisdiction. We have also heard about things on reserve that would complicate matters, such as when there's a conflict between the Wildlife Act and treaty rights. We've also heard from one of the RCMP people about even enforcing road traffic safety laws when the laws are different for one road versus another road. Then we heard about operational discretion of the RCMP in enforcing laws. We heard about the administration of justice agreements to allow agreements between the first nation communities and the PPSC about prosecuting bylaws.

I don't know about you, but when I look at this area, I throw up my hands and say this is just too damned complicated. You can't even start to act, because there are so many different laws.

I know you can't change the Constitution and we're probably not going to change the Indian Act, but let's say you could. I'll ask both of you. I know you have to do your job, and it should be a lot easier for you to do your job without having to deal with this unbelievable complexity that is handcuffing you in what you can do.

What would be your suggestions if you were in Parliament? What would you change to make this easier?

I will ask that to both police services here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

We only have a minute left.

Go ahead, Chief.

[Chief Dale Cox]

First of all, I don't want to be in Parliament.

Second, yes, there are solutions. We always look to why we can't do something; let's find out what we actually can do. It might not be the Cadillac version, but maybe it is something that still moves us forward.

A lot of times, people don't want a complete pound of flesh; they just want to be listened to. They want to be heard and they want to know that what their thoughts are is right, and they'd like to find a resolution as opposed to an enforcement and a punishment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bob Bratina]

Thanks for that, Chief.

Now we'll go to Madame Bérubé for six minutes.

Please go ahead.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to the witnesses for their participation, particularly Captain Durant and Captain Guay.

Captain Durant, what services does the Sûreté du Québec provide in the communities you serve? Could you elaborate?

[Robert Durant]

You asked me the question, but I believe that Captain Guay is better able to answer it, since she is responsible for service delivery on the entire indigenous territory.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

That's fine, thank you.

[Marie-Hélène Guay]

Thank you for the question, Ms. Bérubé.

As I was saying earlier, as far as the indigenous communities are concerned, the services we provide are similar to those in the cities served by the Sûreté du Québec.

We respond according to the principle of community policing. The services include 24-hour patrols in the communities, responding to requests for assistance from residents, enforcing laws and regulations in the communities, crime prevention, community relations, police investigations in various fields, responding to emergency situations, such as search and rescue operations in the forest, and any event that requires police deployment.

The community patrol aims to bring people closer together. It is about breaking the mould a little and interacting with them during community activities organized by the band councils or schools. We get out of our vehicles in order to have a kind of closer relationship with the people.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Earlier, you talked about implementing two other ÉMIPICs. Where will they be located? What will the next four ÉMIPICs be like?