Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 11th, 2022

[Dan Vandal, Liberal, Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB]

The government has a 10-year, $2.2 billion program to clean up contaminated and abandoned mines throughout the north. Significant investments have been made and will continue to be made. The programs are intended to ensure that the lands and the waters are remediated and are healthy for future generations. When the mines are cleaned up, it's incumbent on us to ensure that the jobs, the procurement and the benefits of the cleanup go to indigenous nations in and around the mines and to other locals who live in the north.

Over the last couple of years, you and I, and Minister Bennett who has done a tremendous job on this, have formed a very good partnership with the Yellowknives Dene for the Giant Mine remediation. It was really one of the saddest parts of Canadian history, where the land was mined and the arsenic was simply thrown all over the land and the water and ingested by indigenous peoples. It's a very sad part of Canadian history, which was, frankly, ignored for too long.

We're no longer ignoring it. We're at the tables with the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations: me; you as a local MP; and most importantly, the Yellowknives Dene. Speaking as one person, one MP, I won't be satisfied until the Government of Canada issues an apology to the Yellowknives Dene.

We're working in partnership. There's great local leadership with you and the Yellowknives Dene. We're going to continue working with the Minister of Indigenous Services, the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations and the Prime Minister on this very important program.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you, Minister; and thank you, Mr. McLeod.

Ms. Gill, you have six minutes.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, I want to thank the ministers for their presentations.

My first question is for Minister Hajdu.

Ms. Hajdu, you said that a key requirement for first nations economic development is access to capital. I would add that this has been the case since 1876.

I want to know whether her government plans to overcome the barriers to economic development, specifically in terms of legislative changes.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much, Madame Gill.

First of all, yes, our government has been very focused on self-determination, using every tool in the tool box, including legislation, including equity in funding, including closing gaps in a number of different ways that have existed for far too long for indigenous people.

I am profoundly aware of the importance of this position in not just our Liberal government's focus on reconciliation, but the Government of Canada's obligations through treaties and other promises made to indigenous people since the point of contact. I feel that this is our responsibility to honour those commitments and to do everything in our power to help communities decolonize, for lack of a better word.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Everything that you're saying now is very informative, Minister Hajdu. However, my question was more specific. You have obligations, of course, but do you have a plan? Are you willing to make legislative changes?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

It is a broad question. I'm not sure if the member means specific.... Obviously, yes, we do. As you know, we have child welfare legislation that has been passed through this House. We have proposed co-developed health legislation. There is legislation that is being contemplated and worked on around policing. In fact, all of this is with the primary goal—

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Minister Hajdu, I was speaking specifically about a plan for the future. We could certainly talk about what has been done in the past, which I imagine will help with first nations economic development. However, what are the plans for the future?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Madam Gill, through the chair, this is in fact about the future. This is in fact about creating strong and vibrant communities that have the tools they need to determine for themselves according to the promises made to indigenous people by European settlers so many years ago. Individual communities are working through a self-determination lens, sometimes in groups, sometimes individually, to create stronger futures for their children and their grandchildren through mechanisms that include legislation that will empower self-determination of critical aspects such as education, health care and child welfare.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Minister Hajdu. I'm sorry to keep rushing you, but we have so many questions. We'd love to take our time, but we can't.

I see that there's no real plan for the legislative agenda. I'll address some other topics with you.

For example, you spoke about equity. I wondered whether there was equity in the assistance provided. It can be financial assistance, but it can also be in the form of programs or policies. Maybe there are distinctions among not only first nations communities, but also Métis and Inuit communities.

It would be more difficult to talk about equality here. However, can you tell us whether this assistance is equal, at least, or whether there are really disparities among the communities? If so, what are those disparities and why are they there?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Mr. Chair, that's a very big question. Of course there have inequalities in and among indigenous communities and between non-indigenous and indigenous communities. In and among indigenous communities, there are a number of factors that contribute—

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Minister Hajdu, that wasn't my question. Sorry to interrupt you, but I just want to rephrase it.

I wasn't talking about disparities between indigenous and non‑indigenous people. I was referring to disparities among first nations, Métis and Inuit communities.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Mr. Chair, I think I answered that in the first part of my answer. Yes, there are inequities in and among indigenous peoples, and there are a variety of factors related to those inequities, including things like how far away someone is from a metropolitan centre, what kinds of trauma they've experienced, whether or not communities have been relocated, how they've been able to interact with—

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Minister Hajdu, I want to know what inequities are caused by differences in programs or differences in funding from the government. Is the government causing these inequities among the different communities? At the same time, how is the government planning to address these inequities?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Yes, the government does work to reduce inequities. There are formulas that provide funding based on a variety of metrics, but we also work with communities that are struggling with self-governance models to support communities in self-determination, in community healing and moving forward from an economic development perspective in a variety of different ways.

The question is a very broad one, Mr. Chair, so it's very difficult for me to answer in a very granular way, but I would be happy to spend time with the individual member and get her a briefing, if she's interested in that kind of work.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

If you could share some figures regarding the inequities among the various programs for first nations, Métis and Inuit groups, that would provide an overview. If I have any further questions, I would be happy to contact your office. Thank you for offering this assistance, Minister Hajdu.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Garneau]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Ms. Gill.

We will go on to the next speaker.

Ms. Idlout, you have six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Qujannamiik. Thank you so much.

First of all, I just wanted to thank both the ministers for appearing. My first question to Minister Hajdu, which I'll be asking in Inuktitut, will be focusing on the statement that you made that a lack of access to capital is a main barrier to economic development.

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᐃᓄᒃᑎᑐᒻᒧ ᐊᐱᕆᓗᖓ ᑖᓐᓇ ᐅᖃᐅᓯᕆᓵᖅᑕᕋ ᐱᔾᔪᑎᒋᓪᓗᒍ. ᑖᒃᑯᐊᒎᖅ ᐊᒥᓱᓂᑦ ᐱᓕᕆᐊᖃᖅᓯᒪᓇᓱᒃᑲᔅᓯ ᑳᓐᑐᕌᒃᑖᕋᓱᖄᑦᑕᖅᑎᓪᓗᒋᑦ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᓄᓇᖃᖅᖄᖅᓯᒪᔪᐃᑦ ᓇᒻᒥᓂᖁᑎᓖᑦ. ᖃᓄᕐᓕ ᐱᓕᕆᐊᖃᓲᖑᕕᓯ? ᐅᓂᒃᑲᐅᑎᔪᖕᓇᖅᐱᒌᑦ ᖃᓄᒻᒪᕆᒃ ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᑐᓗᖅᑕᕈᑏᑦ ᐲᔭᕋᓱᖃᑦᑕᕐᒪᖔᓯᒍᑦ?

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

I see you have many responsibilities. Your department has been active in removing barriers to procurement within the Inuit organizations. Can you describe what these active measures have been and what problems you have run into?

[English]

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much. Through the chair, I really am looking forward to working with you, MP Idlout. I think there is a lot we can do together, especially for the people of your region and with your vast knowledge.

I think you're on to something when you say that procurement is a real game-changer, and the Government of Canada, as you know, is a large procurer. Now we have set targets and ambitious targets. For example, 5% of every department is to be procured from indigenous businesses and entrepreneurs. Thirty-two departments go live, by the way, as of April 1. This 5% target is an annual target. It is a really exciting initiative because it gives indigenous businesses and entrepreneurs a very large customer base from which they can then grow their base.

Maybe I can turn to Deputy Fox to speak a little bit about the work internally within the Government of Canada, to make sure that we do reach those targets.

[Christiane Fox]

We have a number of programs that are really targeted at removing those barriers to economic development. There's the entrepreneurship program. We have a community opportunity readiness program, as well as the strategic partnerships initiative. We have a number of programs, really, with the goal of increasing economic activity in indigenous communities in a distinctions-based way.

I would say that the 5% target for the federal government will increase that economic activity by mandating that these government departments procure their goods and services from indigenous-led businesses. As Minister Hajdu noted, 32 departments are part of phase one. As of April 1, 2022, they will be required, and it will be publicly available information, to procure for their department at 5%. Then, over the next three years, we will onboard other departments. At the end of that process, all departments will have that 5%, and we should see an increase in opportunity.

Right now, it is a barrier. It is a challenge. Sometimes we want to hire indigenous businesses, and because they're not on a standing offer, barriers are created that we just need to remove. I think that 5% will really help us get there and make some progress.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ. ᐱᖃᑖ ᐊᐱᕆᔪᒪᖕᒥᔪᖓ, ᐊᓯᖏᓐᓂᒃ ᐊᑐᐊᒐᕐᓂᑦ ᐱᑕᖃᕐᒪᖔᓯᒍᑦ. ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᐊᑐᐊᒐᐃᑦ ᖃᓄᖅ ᐱᒻᒪᕆᐅᑎᑦᑎᓲᖑᖕᒪᖔᑕ ᓇᖕᒥᓂᖁᑎᓕᖕᓄᑦ ᓄᓇᖃᖅᖄᖅᓯᒪᔪᓂᑦ. ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ.

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

Thank you.

I have a second question. What policies does your department, indigenous services, have in place to prioritize procurement through indigenous businesses?

[English]

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you, MP Idlout, through the chair.

This procurement target is the prioritization. It means having, in black and white, an actual target of a percentage of business that will be done with indigenous entrepreneurs. Without a target like that, there can be many commitments made but no way to track whether or not those commitments are made, especially over the vastness of the various departments of the federal government.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᒪᒥᐊᓇᖅ. ᑖᓐᓇ ᑐᑭᓯᑦᑎᐊᖅᑕᕋ ᐊᐱᕆᓵᖅᑐᖓ, ᐊᓯᖏᓐᓂ ᐊᑐᐊᒐᖅᑕᖃᒃᑲᓐᓂᕐᒪᖔᑦ?

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

I understand totally. Do you have any other policies or programs in place to address this?

[English]

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'll turn to Deputy Minister Fox to speak.

[Christiane Fox]

Another example that I would provide would be the list of indigenous businesses, which is a directory designed to support indigenous businesses in pursuing business opportunities with government. Back in 2018, there were 1,609 businesses; today there are over 2,400. So, slowly, through this initiative, we are seeing growth. Coupled with the 5% target, we should be seeing more and more increases.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut as follows:]

ᖁᔭᓐᓇᒦᒃ ᑭᐅᑦᑎᐊᕋᕕᑦ, ᐊᐱᕆᔪᒪᖕᒥᔪᖓ ᕚᓐᑎᐅᓪ-ᒧᑦ. ᑖᒃᑯᐊ ᓄᓇᖃᖅᖄᖅᓯᒪᔪᐃᑦ ᐊᒻᒪᓗ ᐅᑭᐅᖅᑕᖅᑐᕐᒥᑦ...

[Inuktitut text interpreted as follows:]

I have a question for Mr. Vandal.

Indigenous and northern communities—