Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Nov. 5th, 2025

[Bryan Larkin]

In short, yes, it is realistic. RCMP officers can and will. They enforce federal, municipal and provincial legislation as well as bylaws under the Indian Act and others. Our approach is that we're working on a national policy to build consistency across the nation. We're working with the First Nations Chiefs of Police Association because it is a national challenge.

One of the strengths of policing in Canada is also officer independence and officer discretion. That forms a part of it. Where appropriate, RCMP officers will and can enforce band bylaws.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso—Antigonish, NS]

How would the community go about doing so? We've heard communities say that they've wanted this. I know you're saying at a committee here with us that you can do that. Communities are asking why their RCMP haven't done this.

How can we ensure that this is done in a collaborative, flexible way that acknowledges the communities' rights to do so?

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

That's the time.

You can send it in writing, if you'd like.

[Bryan Larkin]

I'm happy to do so.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Thank you.

Sébastien, you have six minutes, please.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for their presence here this evening.

Mr. Walraven or Mr. Dakalbab, under the current first nations and Inuit policing program, the federal government contributes 52% of the funding, while the provinces cover the remaining 48%. In practice, it is the government that invests the least that determines the total amount available to communities. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Is your department concerned that it is the government that contributes the least that dictates the level of funding available for first nations security resources?

[Talal Dakalbab]

I would like to begin by clarifying a few points. We have a dedicated budget and we are working with the provinces and territories to ensure that they contribute their share. We are making sure that this is not a random figure, but rather a figure based on needs, reality and comparisons with other police forces in the provinces and territories. That is how we are approaching this.

As mentioned earlier in relation to the Auditor General’s report, it is also about ensuring that there is a better approach and fairness in distribution. What you are referring to is that sometimes we provide a certain amount, but the province is unable to contribute its 48% share, or there are discrepancies.

Last year, we had less than 3% of our total budget left, which shows quite exceptional collaboration. It may be something similar this year. As the minister mentioned earlier, less than a month ago there was a meeting of all federal, provincial and territorial ministers of public safety and justice. Collaboration and commitment were quite an important topic of conversation, and everyone around the table committed to working together to ensure that the funds are fully allocated.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

The minister mentioned that the provinces must also contribute. That means that some provinces are probably not contributing at the same level, and I would like to ask you if that is the case. Are some provinces less generous than others when it comes to policing, which could have an impact on the ground?

[Talal Dakalbab]

This is certainly the case when we propose an amount, but the province is unable to contribute its share. As I said, there have been situations in the past where this has been problematic. Currently, we are seeing better collaboration in the allocation process. I would even say that we are increasingly finding that it is possible to go even further. As the minister mentioned, we will ensure that we have the necessary budget to do so when the time comes.

We have the figures and are happy to share them with you. The federal government allocated $349 million to this program, of which almost 97% has been used. We are therefore on the right track.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

If I understand correctly, Minister Anandasangaree mentioned that a lot of work is under way to develop a law on essential services and that he would come back to see us in a year.

Mr. Chair, I therefore ask you to invite the Minister of Public Safety back in a year to report on the steps that have been taken and to tell us whether we can expect a bill to be introduced in the near future, which I believe is eagerly awaited by the members of the committee and by indigenous communities. We will see if we make a formal recommendation following our study.

In the meantime, Mr. Dakalbab, there is a major problem. Several police chiefs have mentioned the need for sustainable, long-term and predictable funding. In the short term, this has repercussions on equipment reservations and police recruitment. What can you tell us to reassure those who work in communities and need predictability?

[Talal Dakalbab]

I think the minister has been clear about the priorities. The discussion that began on the legislation a few years ago is continuing, and it is having a significant impact on the decisions we are making.

The budget is certainly a key element. Earlier, there was a question about community safety officers. There are several funds, not just the first nations and Inuit policing program. As we discussed earlier, there are tripartite agreements, community safety officers and infrastructure investments.

I think what’s important here is to make sure we follow up. Of course, on our side, we meet with chiefs, communities, and representatives from the provinces, territories, and certain municipalities to ensure we have the capacity to allocate funds.

With regard to the infrastructure program, for example, it is extremely important to ensure that we are aware of the timelines. We are aware of the challenges, so we want to ensure that the money is invested at the right time to avoid shortages elsewhere.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you for your clear answers. I appreciate that particularly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Thank you.

William, you have five minutes.

[William Stevenson, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you.

I'll continue with MP Lemire's questioning.

You mentioned previously that you had a lot of statistics. Could we get you to perhaps have some of that spending broken down by jurisdiction as to who is actually participating, for how much and what those levels are?

With that, could you also break it down as to whether there is a difference on a per capita basis with regard to those who are doing self-policing versus those who are covered by the RCMP? I don't know if that's for Mr. Walraven or not.

[Adrian Walraven, Director General, Indigenous Affairs, Crime Prevention Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

We don't have it broken down in terms of what my team manages as normal data on a per capita basis, but as a substantive response to your question, one of the points of comparison that I think some first nations make—and I know that first nations in Alberta make this point of comparison—is how much funding on a per capita or per officer basis we are seeing going to first nations police services versus how much on a per officer basis is being subsidized under other aspects of the program, like a community tripartite agreement.

We are making those links in funding agreement negotiations. It is an informal point of comparison that we do use.

[William Stevenson, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you.

That leads to where I was going, in that I have seven different reserves in my riding. All of them are covered by the RCMP at this point, but they're looking at why they don't go to the other one. Funding is part of the reason that they're looking at that.

I might have to go to Mr. Larkin on this one. I liked a lot of the stats from Ms. Ellis, but I don't know, because she's Yukon specific, if she can give us Alberta numbers. I wonder whether you can give us Alberta numbers as to what you have for vacancy rates and whether or not you can tell us, when we have higher vacancy rates, if you have anything for numbers for response times in serving the indigenous communities, especially in our more remote areas. Mine is a rather large area.

I've talked to a few members of the RCMP who have said that 400, 500 or 600 square kilometres per officer is rather large, and response time has been much slower when they have those vacancies.

[Bryan Larkin]

I can give you specifics in writing in the coming weeks around the specifics of the breakdown within Alberta. Our general range of vacancy in Alberta fluctuates between 7% and 10%.

Deputy Commissioner Daroux does allocate resources through the province to ensure, as my colleague Chief Superintendent Ellis alluded to, that we comply with backup policy service, 24-hour response, etc. One of the strengths of our being the provincial police in Alberta is the ability to deploy resources, to move resources and to have the equipment to move resources.

I can certainly break it down, particularly if you're interested in the RCMP serving your indigenous communities in Alberta. I'm happy to do that.

[William Stevenson, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Yes.

We'll probably have to get in writing as well any stats regarding those who are repeat offenders and whether or not those who are out on bail are reoffending and that sort of thing. Are there any differences, or can you give me any stats, with regard to the remote areas and indigenous and northern communities as compared with, say, some of the other ones that are in the more urban areas?

[Bryan Larkin]

We're happy to provide data. Obviously, rural crime is a significant priority for us, not only in Alberta but across the country. The majority of communities in the land mass that we provide policing to are largely in the rural sector of Canada. Clearly, our strategies around crime reduction and dealing with violent crime are very much focused on rural, but we're happy to work with K Division in Alberta, which you represent, to provide you with more specific data. We'd be equally happy to connect you with Deputy Commissioner Trevor Daroux, our commanding officer in the province.

[The Chair, Liberal, Terry Sheehan]

Thank you very much.

Jaime, you have five minutes.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso—Antigonish, NS]

Thank you for that, Mr. Chair.

You know, I'm a little bit frustrated. We had asked the RCMP commissioner to be here to take some of these questions, but you were sent, so I have to put you on the hot seat a little bit here.

We're having a federal study on indigenous policing, which means there's a serious problem that we're dealing with in indigenous communities across Canada. Just last year, in December, the Assembly of First Nations called for a national inquiry into systemic racism in policing. Specifically, they called for “a National Inquiry into systemic racism in policing, to be led by First Nations Commissioners, with a mandate to investigate police-related deaths, serious incidents, and systemic racism in law enforcement, and to make culturally informed recommendations that address root causes and drive reform”.

With this committee looking at this, with the commissioner, with the national chief and all of the chiefs asking for this, do you feel the RCMP is taking adequate steps to address their concerns?

[Bryan Larkin]

First, let's be clear that systemic racism and systemic barriers have absolutely no place within the RCMP, within our police service. I can assure you of the commitment of Commissioner Duheme and of the entire senior executive and senior executive team. We are working hard. As I alluded to, we have acknowledged the past and we're working very hard on the present.

We're continuing to do a number of things. I'm happy to highlight a number of pieces around our equity, diversity and inclusion work. We have a specific team that supports it across the country. Every commanding officer has an indigenous advisory community that provides cultural wisdom and advice and guidance on providing service to indigenous communities. Equally, the commissioner has a national indigenous advisory community that he meets with biannually to discuss challenges within policing and to hear directly from indigenous leaders and chiefs from across the country who guide our police service and the service we do.

We launched a significant anti-racism strategy within our organization. We enhanced cultural competency training at depot and across all the divisions. That includes mandatory training. As alluded to, we launched an official languages extension under the Indigenous Languages Act. We have 140 regular members now signed up to learn six different indigenous languages.

We're also piloting—

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso—Antigonish, NS]

Commissioner, I'm sorry I have to cut you off a little bit, but I don't have a lot of time here.

We've been hearing significant concerns over the past few weeks. This was something they called for back in December. Has the RCMP commissioner met with the national chief to hear her concerns since December of last year?

[Bryan Larkin]

I'd have to get back to you in writing. I do have good knowledge of the commissioner's calendar. I do know that he has met with a number of chiefs. We are happy to provide you with that information specifically. I do believe he just recently met with his indigenous advisory committee.

I want to reaffirm our complete commitment to this.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso—Antigonish, NS]

As a member of Parliament and as chair of the indigenous caucus, what I'd really like to hear is that the RCMP are willing to meet with the national chief to hear the concerns that were raised last year when they called for a national inquiry. I feel that adequate steps have to come out of here. I would really have liked to ask this question of Commissioner Duheme, but he's not here. What I really need to get is a commitment from the RCMP to meet with the AFN's national chief. I hope you can take that back, and I hope we can get a response in writing before the end of this study.

I'll let you continue. What steps have we done since December of last year?