Evidence of meeting #11 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was project.
A video is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
I encourage you to do it soon, because we'll be finishing our study in the next two weeks.
Thank you. Meegwetch.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON
Thank you very much, Chair.
Thank you, Minister, for coming.
Minister, since ISC was created back in 2017, your department has gone from about 4,200 employees to almost double that, at over 8,000. The last estimate I found on your website was 8,600 employees, but your outcomes have actually gone down.
We've had numerous Auditor General reports putting out continuous failures within the department: Housing is overcrowded, crime is on the rise and mental health and addictions are still continuing to get worse under your government's watch. We still have drinking water advisories in effect, some of which have lasted 10 years or more, but your government promised to end that in 2019.
Why do we continually add more people to your department, yet we see more failures at the same time?
Liberal
Mandy Gull-Masty Liberal Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
The needs at Indigenous Services Canada continue to grow exponentially because it is one of the fastest-growing populations in Canada. It is also one that has been historically underfunded. There was a period of time where funding was severely lacking. For us to contribute and to invest over $300 billion over a 10-year period really addressed and closed that gap.
Liberal
Mandy Gull-Masty Liberal Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
Do you want me to answer the question? I want to provide the information to you.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON
Well, I do, but here's the thing: You talk about underfunding, but since 2019, your department has had a funding increase of 84% but the outcomes are getting worse.
How much more money do you need to actually fix some of these problems?
Liberal
Mandy Gull-Masty Liberal Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
If you're going to ask me to quantify the impact of addressing one of the most vulnerable, historically underfunded populations in Canada—
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON
I'm just asking you why we are continuing to spend more. We've doubled the bureaucrats.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Terry Sheehan
Jamie, we'll let the minister answer the question. You will have a supplemental one.
Liberal
Mandy Gull-Masty Liberal Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
—I'm not able to give that information to you, because I want to really indicate to you that the commitment of this government to meet the needs, to close the gaps in community...is going to be long-term work. Hundreds of years of underfunding, of harm to first nations, to Inuit, to Métis people is not something that you fix in 10 years—
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON
I'd like to reclaim my time, Chair. This is my time, Chair—
Liberal
Mandy Gull-Masty Liberal Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
—especially when the decade prior was one of the decades where they had been historically underfunded to a degree where cuts were so severe, we were not able to respond or recover from them.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON
Okay, still I'm getting those talking points, but my question is about the funding going to bureaucrats.
We are seeing an increase in funding, but the results getting worse. Housing in community has never been worse in terms of overcrowding. Infrastructure has gotten worse, despite more money going to the department. I get that it was underfunded for many decades.
The problem is the department has more money than ever, it has more bureaucrats than ever, but the results are getting worse. Why?
Liberal
Mandy Gull-Masty Liberal Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
Well, you're telling me that we're not making any improvements and you understand that—
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON
I'm getting this from the Auditor General. It's not my word. This is the Auditor General.
Liberal
Mandy Gull-Masty Liberal Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
If you want me to answer the question, I can answer the question. But you're not giving me the opportunity to respond. I'm three words in, and I'm not able to give a response. I do want to answer your question.
Liberal
Mandy Gull-Masty Liberal Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
We have grown as a department, because we continue to grow to meet the needs of community. I want to be very clear on that. There was a period of time during the pandemic where we had lots of additional existing needs that we had to respond to. So, yes, there was a growth in the public service to accommodate that necessary and emergency situation.
The Auditor General reports do outline that there is additional work that needs to be done, but there are some successes that are also outlined. Being able to lift 95% of boil water advisories, being able to hire additional medical staff, being able to build new clinics in multiple communities, being able to invest in infrastructure, being able to build new schools—these are things that are going to be reflected in the next Auditor General's report. There are some in the previous ones—
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON
Since you mentioned health care, according to the Auditor General, “The department expanded the pool of...health care professionals.” Despite those efforts, the department was unable to meet their “target staff complement in First Nations communities.” Again, your funding is going to bureaucrats. You've doubled...and I get that you had to scale up maybe during the pandemic. That's fine. The pandemic's been over for a number of years, the employees are still there, but the outcomes are still getting worse.
Something isn't coordinating here. Housing is still overcrowded. It's getting worse. The infrastructure gap is getting worse. There's “an 84% increase in...funding”.
When are we going to see the results, the outcomes, the positive outcomes? Why does it keep getting worse, according to the Auditor General?
Liberal
Mandy Gull-Masty Liberal Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
I'm going to respond that we are building the public service to respond to the needs of the community. If you feel that outcomes are not improving, this is your reflection. I respect it.
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON
It's not me. I'm reading the Auditor General's report.
Liberal
Mandy Gull-Masty Liberal Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
I'm also going to indicate that the Auditor General's reports do point out success. This government inherited a decade of severe underfunding from the previous Conservative government—
Conservative
Jamie Schmale Conservative Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes, ON
The Auditor General pointed out that only 53% of their recommendations were acted upon—