Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 29th, 2025

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Sure.

I'll put the same question to the other officer on screen.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

This is your last question.

[Insp Michael Kreisz]

I agree with what Inspector Beaudin said. It's an incredibly complicated issue, though. I'd have to see the framework that's in place to accomplish it and if there are additional resources being offered to accomplish it. We have a lot of policing priorities, as you've heard, in the far north. We're stretched very thin. There's a lot to tackle right now.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

With my last few seconds left, I take it that, again, tackling crime, criminals and the issues in the community are a little bit more important than taking away law-abiding firearm owners' firearms.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

Okay. Thank you very much, everyone.

To our first panel of witnesses, you gave us great testimony here today. Thank you to our guests here in person and those appearing remotely. We appreciate your contributions.

We will suspend for a few moments to clear this panel and bring in our next. Thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

We are back with our second panel for our study on indigenous policing.

We have two guests with us today for the second round. We will begin with Kahnawake. We'll have the chief peacekeeper, Chief Dwayne Zacharie, for five minutes. Then we'll go to Long Point First Nation.

Chief Zacharie, you have five minutes. The floor is yours. Thank you.

[Chief Dwayne Zacharie, Chief Peacekeeper, Kahnawake Peacekeepers]

Good afternoon. Thank you for the invitation.

For nearly 30 years, I've served my community, providing services and making sure the community is safe and secure. In my estimation, without first nations policing, there's no such thing as national security in this country. All of Canada sits on indigenous land. Indigenous police services safeguard critical infrastructure. They uphold the rule of law across the regions they police together. At this moment, there are 36 self-administered first nations indigenous police services, and they are policing about one-third of the country's landmass. That's about 156 communities across the country.

Right now, they're all struggling. There are a number of different reasons why they struggle. At the end of the day, they're struggling because of inequities through the first nations and Inuit policing program. All first nations, one way or another, are providing services and operational excellence because of their local knowledge and their investment in their communities. Many of the first nations police officers live and work in the same community they're responsible for. In Kahnawake, our peacekeepers speak the language, understand the culture, know every family and know every road in the territory. In our community, there are no civic numbers. There are no street numbers. We need to know everybody in our community. That's 10,000 people.

Regarding our location, we're just outside the city of Montreal. We have major highways going through our territory. Every single day, we have over 130,000 commuters using our territory to get to Montreal. That influx of population puts a strain on our policing services. There's no recognition of that. There's no reason why the government never thinks, “Hey, we have to do something about this.”

There's an argument here. The argument I'm trying to make is that, without first nations policing, there's no such thing as national security. Without us, what happens? Who fills that gap? If somebody says, “Hey, we'll step up and fill that gap”, what will the cost then be to Canada and taxpayers? What's going to happen to them? Who's going to foot the bill for this?

We hear numerous reports about how good first nations policing is and how it provides services to communities, yet it's doing this for pennies on the dollar. There's no equality. There's a difference between what first nations policing is doing and what other policing is doing. For lack of a better term, I'll call that mainstream policing. Why is there a difference? Why are first nations police services resourced at lower rates? That's a question we've always had. We never seem to get the answer.

Here is one of the things that are key to all this: When you invest in indigenous policing, you get an amazing return because of all those first nations and indigenous police officers. The job they do is invaluable to their communities. When you invest in indigenous policing, the cost will be much lower than having to get someone else to come into the community who doesn't know the reality, the culture, the tradition, the language and the trauma indigenous people have suffered over the years. All those indigenous police officers understand this and work exceptionally hard to provide services to their communities.

Right now, the outlook is bleak. Every one of those services has to pick and choose how to provide service to their community because they're so poorly resourced. Over the years, we've seen small, incremental changes, but it's so glacially slow. Things need to change. On other panels, people testified that the only time they see change or movement—when people take notice—is when there's a tragedy. We don't need that to happen. We need to do something now. The time for half measures and talk is over. Let's make some changes. Let's do something that really makes a difference in indigenous communities.

Our officers work without the same pensions over their careers. They have facilities that are outdated. The equipment is often second-hand or obsolete. Funding agreements are short-term. The administrative functions are super heavy in terms of the reporting requirements. We need to be able to plan for the future. We need to be able to see first nation policing, indigenous policing, grow and expand to provide those services.

I'll keep coming back to that theme of the safety and security of all Canadians. Without indigenous policing, there's no such thing as public security or national security. We need to invest in the infrastructure as well as the structures themselves within indigenous policing services. Without us, who would take up that mantle? Who would fill the gap? How will it change things if indigenous policing becomes extinct? There's a cost to that. I think regular, everyday Canadians will have to take up the brunt of that, because there's no one better at doing the job of indigenous policing than the indigenous police services themselves.

As we think about it and talk about it, somewhere in the future, with 634 indigenous communities across this country at the moment—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

Chief Peacekeeper Zacharie, could I get you to quickly wind up? We can probably get more during your testimony shortly.

[Chief Dwayne Zacharie]

Absolutely.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

Thank you very much for your opening statement.

We'll now go to the chief of Long Point First Nation.

You have five minutes.

[Chief Steeve Mathias, Chief, Long Point First Nation]

Kwe and good evening.

First, I understand you're in Ottawa, and I want to welcome you to Algonquin unceded territory. I would have much preferred to attend in person, but for many reasons I wasn't able to travel today to be with you. I'm glad that I'm able to participate virtually so that we have the opportunity to share the experience of what we're going through here in my community of Winneway.

I wanted to take this opportunity, too, Mr. Chair, to acknowledge our member of Parliament, Sébastien Lemire, because he got me the time that was allocated for me this evening.

I prepared a brief. I don't know if I sent it to the right place. If it didn't come through, I'll be more than happy to follow up on that afterwards.

I wanted to share a bit of what's happened in my community. I was a former police officer, and I served my community for six years. I went to training in one of the Innu communities. It was Mashteuiatsh back then. It was under the American police service. I served under that police service back then.

I've heard testimony on how community police officers are having to serve the safety of their community by being all alone. I lived that back then. I was the only police officer. I had to put in seven hours active and 17 hours standby. We had shifts. I think they were seven on, seven off. Often, I wasn't able to rely on any backup.

Then, in the early nineties, they abolished that police service and created these tripartite agreements. My community signed and renewed I think twice a tripartite agreement. Then, when I was a chief back then—I was elected—they were taking this attitude of take it or leave it. As I heard from another panel earlier, it's an ultimatum that they give you. Either you take it or you leave it, and you have until midnight on March 31 to accept the deal. It's like putting a gun to your head and saying, “You sign this or you're not going to get anything.”

In 2006, we said no, because we were having to tap into other programs. We had to tap into other essential services for dollars to maintain our police service. We were incurring huge deficits every year—$100,000 for a small community like mine. It was completely unacceptable. We were asking for a measly extra $100,000 to renew our tripartite agreement in 2006, and they wouldn't budge on that. They said, “No, you take what we're giving you or leave it.” We didn't renew it, but the council said that we were going to maintain our police service, which we've done.

They keep oppressing us and telling us, “Look, your police officers are not sworn in now. We're going to cancel their oaths of office so they cannot perform their duties as police officers in your community.” It got to the point that they sent a bailiff to deliver those letters to our police officers.

It's a bloody shame how they treated my community. Even though what we've done.... We're sovereign. We swore in our own police officers. They came under our traditional ways of things and what we're doing. We had a smudging ceremony. They swore, not on the Bible but with a feather and with their hand. They swore that they were going to serve with honour and to protect our people and keep them safe.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

If you're able to wrap up here, then we'll get into some questions and probably expand on that a little.

[Chief Steeve Mathias]

What I want to wrap up on is that.... Why are we being exposed to some kind of a situation? After they shut down our police detachment, they got the SQ to serve my community.

The SQ served my community right until today. That was 20 years ago. When they first took over, it was two police officers per vehicle, and they had two vehicles. We had four police officers from the SQ here 24-7. It was to the point that it was costing them $1.8 million per year. We were asking for $500,000.

Money is not the issue in my community. It's all about politics. It's all about keeping us oppressed and under control so that we don't create a community that is under no supervision, where we can maintain peace and order in our community.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

Thank you very much.

We'll probably get you to expand on that in just a second, but we do have to start our first round of questioning.

With that, we go to the Conservative Party and Mr. Morin for six minutes.

[Billy Morin, Conservative, Edmonton Northwest, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I'll start with Chief Mathias.

Thank you, Chief, for coming today and making time for us.

We often hear from the government that it's all about the nation-to-nation relationship, but then it's giving you ultimatums. Does it really feel like you're in a nation-to-nation, respectful relationship?

[Chief Steeve Mathias]

No, there's no such thing as nation to nation. I've been chief for over 17 years now. I was a member of council, too. I was a councillor. I was a negotiator. I've always been active at those negotiating tables. There's no nation-to-nation relationship taking place there. It's very paternalistic discussions that are taking place around that table.

Once we know.... We keep maintaining our position on how we want to have the delivery of our services of policing. We want a community-based police approach, not a police service that is just going to be there to arrest people or give people tickets. That's what's happening in my community right now.

The minute that we start going out publicly and criticizing our policing services, the SQ come here and start giving people tickets. They'll pull over our youths when they're driving around with their four-wheelers, saying that it's because they didn't wear a helmet. I had one councillor today, and it was because he didn't make a complete stop. There are a lot of other things that have to be done in the community here. We have drug dealers from Toronto who have moved into the community now. They're not doing much about it. That's how pathetic things are right now.

[Billy Morin, Conservative, Edmonton Northwest, AB]

Thanks, Chief.

You know, funding is a reality. We've heard from several testimonies that funding is a challenge. Many first nations struggle with social funding, running a government and running a small nation. You mentioned funding even for yourself. You asked for an additional $100,00 or $500,000, and that was denied.

I'm assuming that your nation can't, by itself, afford to cover the costs of community policing. Is that correct?

[Chief Steeve Mathias]

No, we don't have our own-source revenue to support a service like policing. After 2006, when they abolished our police detachment, in 2008 we signed a framework agreement only with the Quebec government. We had a letter of understanding specifically on policing too, to resolve policing because we wanted to reinstate our police service. We've been trying to negotiate ever since.

Canada was refusing to take part in what we were doing for all different kinds of reasons: “We don't have the money right now. The program is under review.” They kept giving us all different kinds of excuses. Even when I intervened, a few years ago, with Premier Legault, he said, “Okay, Steeve, if things don't move within the next couple of months, I'll personally get involved.” What happened? It was the minister of public security and the minister of aboriginal affairs who made a joint public announcement, through a press conference, saying that they were going to create a pilot project to create a regional police for the three Anishinabe communities in the Timiskaming district, and that they were going to appoint a rapid response team.

It was four years ago that a rapid response team was supposed to deal with the situation we're in right now, and what have they done? They built two new police stations—one for the two other communities. They have brand new police detachments, which cost $9 million each—and they increased their operating budget significantly too—but for my community...nothing. All that we have is a trailer that serves the SQ when they come here, so that they have a place to go to the washroom. That's it. There's nothing—

[Billy Morin, Conservative, Edmonton Northwest, AB]

Thank you, Chief. I just want to get one more in before my time's up. Thank you for those answers.

I have one more for Chief Peacekeeper Dwayne Zacharie. Kahnawake is near the border, and the government recently announced 1,000 CBSA officers, border agents. I'm sure you have your struggles with the border and the port of Montreal—nefarious actions, drug dealers and things of that nature in Kahnawake.

Were you involved with any supports from Canadian border agencies or any of the recent announcements of funding going to those organizations?

[Chief Dwayne Zacharie]

That's a great question. Just for your information, Kahnawake is actually right next door to the city of Montreal. Akwesasne is actually the community that borders Quebec, Ontario and New York State.

However—pertaining to your question—I do know, because I've been in some discussions, that, when it comes to 1,000 additional officers for the RCMP or for the CBSA, we're not involved in those discussions. First nations policing is left out of it. In our minds, the government keeps shoring up these other services, making them bigger, stronger and more capable, yet they keep us down. They don't provide us with the resourcing we need, and that's where the gaps happen. That's where organized crime infiltrations and impacts to national security happen.

What we're here to say is that first nations policing can do the work. We just need to be properly resourced. We need the equity and security to be able to do what other services can do. Without technology, infrastructure, any of that assistance or resources, that's when tragedies happen. That's when the impacts are felt across the country and it becomes a big deal, and that's the only time people respond to it.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

Thank you very much.

Now, as our next questioner, we have Mr. Hanley for six minutes.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you very much, both of you, for being here and for your testimony.

Chief Zacharie, in just following up on some of the things you mentioned during your opening remarks, you said that you had been following some of our meetings to date. I'm not sure whether you saw the other day. I believe it was Chief Denny, from Eskasoni First Nation, who actually pointed out the model of policing that you have through the peacekeepers at Kahnawake. I am just wondering whether you could tell me a little more about how the model that you're using works and how that might differ from the traditional SQ approach.

[Chief Dwayne Zacharie]

That's a great question.

I'm really proud of the Kahnawake Peacekeepers. One thing we do that is different and unique is that we're one of the only indigenous police services in North America that's made up entirely of indigenous people, and the vast majority of our members come directly from the community of Kahnawake.

Who better to provide the services that we do than people directly from the community? We know the culture. We know the language. We know the realities. We know the people. We're part of the fabric of the society. That's the difference. We understand and we know our clientele. We know our community members.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

I'm going to press you a little on that. In terms of your operational model, I completely understand what you said and you made that very clear in your opening remarks.

If you were to compare from an operational point of view in terms of visits, drop-ins and more proactive and preventative measures that play a role, how does the model you've developed work operationally on the ground?

[Chief Dwayne Zacharie]

Our model is that every day we go out and try to build trust with the community. We don't say, “This is the model you get. This is how it's going to be done.” We have communications with the community and we go from there. We actually practise true community policing. Other services use it as a buzzword, but for us, every single day is a new day to build trust.

Last year, we did about 15,000 files. We have over 130,000 people a day coming through our community, so we're providing service not only to our community members but also to people from communities that surround our territory. That makes us very valuable to national security here in this country.

We do have prevention programs, and we find that being able to do these prevention programs—getting into our schools and meeting with the youth and community members—goes a long way in helping to reduce certain types of statistics. We have domestic violence programming. We have drug programming and drug recidivism programs. We have our own court system in the community. We have a program called Skén:nen Aonsón:ton, which is alternative dispute resolution.

All of these programs go a step further in helping us to do the job that we do in our territory.