Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 29th, 2025

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora—Kiiwetinoong, ON]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

Thank you very much, Eric, for your questions.

We now go to the Liberals for six minutes.

Ms. Lavack, please.

[Ginette Lavack, Liberal, St. Boniface—St. Vital, MB]

Thank you so much to everyone who is here giving testimony today. We really appreciate having this opportunity to learn and to hear from you.

I would like to start with Inspector Marcel Beaudin.

You mentioned the need for structural changes. Can you elaborate on that? Are there any specific models that exist for joint training in communities or community-based initiatives that exist that you feel could be replicated nationally? What do those structural changes look like?

[Insp Marcel Beaudin]

Yes, when I'm talking about structural changes, for us, if we are going to have an integrated response, say, or if we are going to target organized crime—and I don't want to get into the details associated with that—it's to provide opportunities to actually have investigative excellence and to be able to see that through. That way, we have the ability to intercept drugs, detect, deter and ensure that we are doing our job as good as we possibly can. That way, we are protecting the communities we are charged to serve.

I look even at the grand chief's comments about the lack of people in airports and the lack of security. Today, I went in for coffee just around the corner, at a Tim Hortons. There were seven people serving me coffee. There were seven people working. I look at some of the numbers associated with our Ontario first nations policing agreement, and some of the communities have four officers. Some of them have two.

When I'm talking about structural change, I'm talking about some first nation police services that have a constable, a sergeant and an inspector. In this distance between sergeant and inspector, there's just so much that goes on in between there, so it's about really creating the structure for the police service to be successful and to thrive.

[Ginette Lavack, Liberal, St. Boniface—St. Vital, MB]

Thank you.

Are there any lessons learned from the OPP working in partnership with indigenous police services in terms of delivering that really culturally sensitive service to the community?

[Insp Marcel Beaudin]

I've said multiple times—and I'm glad that Chief Swamp is on here—that there's nobody that polices within a first nations community better than the first nations chiefs of police, represented also by the Indigenous Police Chiefs of Ontario. We have the privilege of policing 22 directly within the OPP, administering 17 and also having the three that Inspector Kreisz has.

Within the indigenous policing bureau, after the tragedies of Ipperwash, we certainly learned a lot of lessons. We have, under the indigenous policing bureau, an indigenous awareness training unit to provide culturally responsive training to our members who go into communities.

We have the MMIWG implementation team to implement the calls to justice across our organization. We have the provincial liaison team, which came out of the tragedies of Ipperwash, which allows for, in times of crisis, communication strategies and building relationships with people and which, hopefully, can leverage situations, and then we have the Ontario first nations policing agreement.

We have regular conversations and interactions with the Indigenous Police Chiefs of Ontario. The superintendent for the indigenous policing bureau is a non-voting member of the Indigenous Police Chiefs of Ontario. I talked to multiple chiefs of the nine this week. We are in continual conversations as to how we support each other to become better and how we make sure we're filling the gaps with the finite resources that we all have.

[Ginette Lavack, Liberal, St. Boniface—St. Vital, MB]

Thank you very much.

I would like to move now to Police Chief Jerel Swamp.

You mentioned that you would have some ideas to share with us about how to practically design legislation. Could you please share some of those ideas with us?

[Chief Jerel Swamp]

The biggest issue we have in first nations is that we're funded under the FNIPP, which is a program in itself, so it doesn't fund us for stable services. We're funded under the discretionary board of the treasury department. What we're funded for doesn't create stability for our services. The police services that we have under that program were funded for either one to three years at a time, which doesn't create the stability or the planning that we should have within our communities for community safety.

The other issue I see is what Grand Chief Fiddler was talking about: crime in our communities. If you look at crime severity indexes across Canada, you're looking at a 37% higher number of violent crimes in our first nation communities. Why is that? Under FNIPP, we were limited until recently, such that we couldn't have specialized services in our police services. We couldn't have canine units. We couldn't have a drug unit. We couldn't have a major crime unit. We couldn't have victim services. If we wanted those services, we had to find another source of funding. One chief said that we've become black belts in sources of funding so that we can better serve our communities.

Under FNIPP, even though they alleviated the terms and conditions so that we could have specialized services, they didn't influx any resources or any money into the services, so we're still left without. We're dealing with gang members who are coming into our communities, but we're not given the money and adequate resources to deal with that effectively.

Our officers in our first nation police services are well experienced and well trained because they have to do investigations from A to Z. They don't have a specialized unit where they can pass that information on to a search warrant writer or to an emergency response team to execute a warrant. The officers do it themselves. The squad members and the detachments do it themselves as well as the police services. We became very experienced in how we police our communities.

That goes to the retention problem that we have. Because we're so experienced and because we have a lack of resources and pension and wage parity inequities, other agencies are seeking our officers. They do it because they can promise them longevity, a long career within their agencies.

[Ginette Lavack, Liberal, St. Boniface—St. Vital, MB]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

Thank you very much.

We'll now move on to our next questioner from the Bloc Québécois.

You have six minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Grand Chief Fiddler, I want to begin by welcoming you and saying that I'm happy to see you again. We had a good meeting last week. I want to point out that you're a neighbour to my riding.

Less than a year ago, in December 2024, the Government of Ontario recognized the Nishnawbe-Aski police force as an essential service. I want to commend your nation for its determination in advocating for this recognition for many years. This is a pivotal moment in history.

Obviously, this change did not happen overnight. Could you tell us what was required at the policy, institutional and community levels, as well as in terms of communications, to get to this point? What message does this send to the Government of Canada regarding the importance of recognizing indigenous police forces as essential and treating them fairly?

[Grand Chief Alvin Fiddler]

Thank you so much for the question. You're right that Nishnawbe Aski Nation is a leader across the country in terms of becoming constituted as an essential service, which is the agreement we signed last year with the Province of Ontario. It was in response to a number of tragic deaths we saw in our communities.

We know that even though our police chiefs...and I applaud the police chiefs who are on this call from indigenous police services, and the same with NAPS. We tried very hard for the last 35 years to make this work for our communities, but we all saw the gaps that were there. That's why 10 years ago we endeavoured to work with the Province of Ontario to create legislation that would lead to NAPS becoming deemed an essential service. That's the agreement we signed with Ontario last December. It was a collaborative effort. We worked very closely with the province to co-draft legislation that would lead us to this point.

I am grateful for the partnership we have in Ontario, first with the Liberal Party and now with the current Conservative Party, to allow us to do this work. It allows NAPS to actually do adequate and effective policing, which every community deserves to have in the country.

I'll try to be very brief about what has happened in the last year. It's been almost 10 months or 11 months since we signed this agreement. In order for NAPS to meet those standards for building codes, we actually need to double our budget. That's what Ontario has done. They've come to the table and more or less doubled our budget. Canada is dragging its feet to come to that same table and renegotiate those figures to ensure that NAPS has the resources it needs to meet those standards and to ensure that it's able to deliver effective and adequate policing in that territory.

Meegwetch for the question.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Chi-meegwetch. Thank you for your answer, particularly the last part of it, and for your leadership.

You mentioned the fact that Ontario has doubled its funding, and I wanted to emphasize that. I understand that the federal government is still dragging its feet when it comes to increasing your funding. The federal government is absent at the moment, even though you have greater recognition and more responsibilities. Is that correct?

[Grand Chief Alvin Fiddler]

The message we received when I was in Ottawa last week, when I met with the minister and the deputy minister and other senior officials from Public Safety Canada, was to wait until the budget was announced on November 4. I'm crossing my fingers. I don't know what else to do to ensure that Canada comes to the table, because the next round will be starting up soon. My message to the minister and deputy minister was that they needed to be prepared to come to the table with a much bigger envelope.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Grand Chief, as you so rightly pointed out, it often takes a tragedy to bring about the change that first nations need. This recognition by Ontario was long overdue and required considerable effort on the part of your nation.

In your opinion, what needs to happen now, particularly at the federal level, to ensure that other indigenous police services in Canada do not have to overcome the same obstacles that yours did before they are recognized as essential services?

[Grand Chief Alvin Fiddler]

That's a really difficult question. To be honest, I have mixed feelings about federal legislation on policing. We just went through a national experience with child welfare where we negotiated a national package, which we supported and were a part of. Ultimately, it was defeated by other regions for whatever reason.

I think this one-size-fits-all approach on policing across the country will be very difficult. That's why we went ahead and negotiated with the Province of Ontario to ensure that we were able to get to the point where we can be constituted as an essential service, which NAPS is right now. In terms of any federal piece of legislation on policing, I wish you good luck. Whoever does it, I hope it happens, but....

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Meegwetch.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

Thank you very much.

We'll go to to our next questioner.

We have the Conservative Party for five minutes with Billy Morin.

[Billy Morin, Conservative, Edmonton Northwest, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our guests for providing testimony today. I want to go back to Grand Chief Fiddler.

Chief, I have a few quick questions for you.

You mentioned that your communities have declared a state of emergency. Is that right?

[Grand Chief Alvin Fiddler]

That's right.

[Billy Morin, Conservative, Edmonton Northwest, AB]

You also mentioned that funding, much like we've heard from the other testimony today, has been woefully inadequate. Is that correct?

[Grand Chief Alvin Fiddler]

That's correct.

[Billy Morin, Conservative, Edmonton Northwest, AB]

Are the nations themselves able to run deficits to make up for the lack of funding, or are they just bogged down in other crises regarding social services?

[Grand Chief Alvin Fiddler]

Under the first nations and Inuit policing program, first nations police services are not allowed to run a deficit. There are very strict rules. I'm sure Chief Swamp can attest to some of the terms and conditions under that current program.

For example, when we were trying to negotiate these tripartite agreements, we were not even allowed to hire our own legal counsel to help us negotiate. Whenever we were involved in these so-called negotiations, Canada and Ontario would come into the room with their legal teams or legal counsel. Whereas with us, we weren't even allowed that opportunity to have our legal counsel at the table. There are a lot of things that are just wrong with this program.

[Billy Morin, Conservative, Edmonton Northwest, AB]

Chief, there was an announcement made in October from the Liberal government about 1,000 new RCMP and CBSA officers. Were you included in that announcement in any way, shape or form?