Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 29th, 2025

[Grand Chief Alvin Fiddler]

I don't believe we were. I would have to talk to the other first nations police services in the region, but I don't believe we were.

That's why we've been doing our own work at the NAPS and NAN levels to negotiate for additional resources in order for us to be able to hire more police officers. This is what we're doing right now. We're recruiting. We are training and graduating more officers for NAPS. We still have a ways to go to try to reset that complement.

[Billy Morin, Conservative, Edmonton Northwest, AB]

Chief, what message does it send? We're looking at a record deficit from the Liberal government of $60 billion to $80 billion, give or take either way. It can run deficits to address the crises that Canadians... Rightfully so, the crises should be addressed, but first nations and indigenous policing can't up their budgets to address the crises they have been in for a long time.

What message does it send to your communities when the government can run deficits to increase policing services, but you can't?

[Grand Chief Alvin Fiddler]

It sends the message that our safety is not a priority.

The other thing I raised last week when I was in Ottawa was that part of this discussion needed to include the recent pieces of legislation, Bill C-5 and Ontario's Bill 5. There is growing pressure on our communities to open up for development and to identify projects in the regions.

We all know there's a correlation. This was documented by the commission for MMIWG. Whenever there is a large-scale project or activity, there is an increase in crime or violence, especially against women and girls. That's our other concern as we are trying to ensure our communities have access to these resources in order for them to keep their people safe. There are these threats that are also happening from Canada and from Ontario as well.

[Billy Morin, Conservative, Edmonton Northwest, AB]

Thanks, Chief.

It seems like indigenous communities are being forgotten again.

I want to go to Chief Swamp. You are the president of the First Nations Chiefs of Police Association. We heard that there is possible legal action against Canada regarding equitable funding. We also know there's a human rights complaint against the Government of Canada when it comes to equitable funding.

Can you provide us your comments on that and if that's still outstanding?

[Chief Jerel Swamp]

There are several outstanding human rights complaints against Canada, currently, when it comes to inequitable funding and the FNIPP program. The Indigenous Police Chiefs of Ontario currently have a human rights case against Canada.

There was recently a Supreme Court of Canada decision in regard to the inadequate funding you mentioned with Chief Fiddler. There was a community and a police service in Quebec that went into a deficit of over $1 million in their policing. They had to file a human rights complaint in order to get that heard.

It ultimately went to the Supreme Court of Canada, and its ruling was that Canada and the Province of Quebec didn't follow the honour of the Crown when they negotiated with the police service in the community. They were ordered to pay back that $1 million because they didn't negotiate fairly, and they didn't go to negotiate when the community said, “This is what our community's needs are, and in order for us to provide these needs to the community, we're going into a deficit.”

The Province of Quebec and Canada didn't negotiate, and they didn't take that seriously, which is not taking the safety and security of our communities seriously. It did go to the Supreme Court of Canada. The ruling was that Canada and Quebec had to pay that community back. There are ripple effects, then, in regard to that.

The negotiations we have had in the past, under the FNIPP program, with all of our police services, were take-it-or-leave-it negotiations. There were no meaningful negotiations. They would bring an agreement to us at the eleventh hour, on the last week of March, and say, “Sign this agreement or not.” We were forced to sign an agreement. That's not negotiating with our communities, our police services leaders and our community leaders in an honourable manner. I'm hoping the Supreme—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to get you to stop there. We've gone quite a bit over time here.

Perhaps the next questioner will have you pick up there. I know what you have to say is really important.

We will go to five minutes for the Liberal Party.

Is it Mr. Philip Earle or Brendan Hanley?

[Philip Earle, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

It's going to Brendan.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll split my time with Philip.

I wanted to recognize all of you, both for your service and for your testimony today.

Inspector Beaudin, we had a brief chat before the committee began. As you said, you're a member of Henvey Inlet First Nation. You also felt a personal attachment to the issue of indigenous policing and to what we need to do. You mentioned that you've been in this conversation for 20 years. I wanted to give you a chance to talk about that. We don't have a lot of time, but maybe give a quick explanation of that personal connection.

[Insp Marcel Beaudin]

For anyone who has a first nation background and has the opportunity to impact their communities in a positive way, it becomes extremely personal to everyone. We all have a responsibility to public safety in here, regardless of where we sit, what our hat looks like and what our uniform looks like. We're all in this together. You said it excellently, sir, before we started. We're all trying to achieve the same thing.

For me, I look at the things that are in front of us and the opportunities we have. What a great opportunity we all have here to put things in place and in motion to impact the future. Whatever we decide to do today is going to impact the future of first nations communities and the safety of them. In the absence of our putting things in place for their safety, we should expect bad things to happen, because we've lived this for the last 30 years. As a result, we're here today. We're having the same conversations we had 20 years ago.

There are some really important things out there, like Bill C-2, which provides powers to search mail and allows us to do things that have the ability to protect community safety. When we're talking about numbers, dollars and cents, we're really taking about how we ensure these communities are as safe as possible.

Like I mentioned to you earlier, there are conversations out there where there are bad actors, nefarious groups and criminal organizations who know that first nation communities are underfunded and under-resourced when it comes to policing. They're seen as a safe house for people who want to perform nefarious activities.

I appreciate your asking me that question, sir. I hope that answers it.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Yes, that's excellent.

I'll hand that back to Mr. Earle for the rest of the session.

[Philip Earle, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Thank you all for your public service and to you, Grand Chief, for the great work you do in your communities.

I'm drawn to the discussion around aviation. It's my background. With my colleague on the other side, I share the view that we are seeing a lot of communities where there is access and there is not security screening.

I want to address my question to the grand chief.

Recognizing that 89 airports in Canada have CATSA screening but a very small number have cargo screening, would it be your recommendation to this committee, Grand Chief, that for the remaining 1,300 airports in Canada that charter flights could operate from, such screening would be in place?

If so, how would that benefit communities such as yours?

[Grand Chief Alvin Fiddler]

That's something we definitely support. Some of that work is already starting to happen. I was in Sioux Lookout today, for example. I was on my way to Timmins and I stopped in Sioux Lookout. They have a little security area there. I don't know how effective it is, but....

We have 28 remote airports in our territory. Some of the major areas like Timmins, where I am right now, are a bit of a hub. It's the same with Thunder Bay and Sioux Lookout. If there were more resources for those airports to do more screening, I think that would definitely help.

I think the other thing that would help our communities to defend their borders, at least for the fly-in communities, is if they were made aware of charters coming in from, say, Winnipeg. I'm not sure who said it earlier in the hearing today, but there are planes coming in from, say, Winnipeg, in the middle of the night. I think there needs to be some notice, process, regulation, policy or rule to ask these airlines to call someone. I don't know who that someone would be—maybe the chief—to let them know there's a plane coming in, so they can possibly send in some security to check the plane.

Right now it's wide open. There's nothing in terms of regulation or process for security.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

Thank you very much.

We'll go on to our next questioner. It's the Bloc Québécois for two and a half minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. Lemire.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Chief Swamp, throughout your long career in the police, including in your past role as the Akwesasne chief of police and in your current position as the Rama chief of police, you have seen the challenges faced by indigenous police services.

Could you tell me the differences you have seen between OPP officers and indigenous police force officers, particularly with regard to wages and benefits? Is there a disparity in rural communities?

[Chief Jerel Swamp]

Policing in first nations is vastly different within each province. There are different standards and different police service acts that the police services in first nations either follow or they don't follow. In Quebec, there are 22 stand-alone first nation police services. They follow the Police Act in Quebec, yet there are seven levels of policing under that act. First nation police services aren't even mentioned in any of those levels.

In Ontario, the first nation police services don't follow the Police Services Act. Nishnawbe Aski Police Service is a prime example of when a police service opts in through the opt-in process and they are given the funding to meet the adequate and effective policing standards. They doubled their service, because that's exactly what they need to provide safety and security for their communities.

What we're looking at is that, under the FNIPP over the last 30 years, they said that NAPS didn't need that many officers, yet once they went through the adequate and effective policing standards, they saw that they needed double what they had and even to triple it, because we know there are gaps. With the flights that are coming into our territories, that is a big gap. Is that a policing responsibility? Is it a safety responsibility for our communities? Yes, it is.

Across Canada, 20% of our first nation communities don't have road access 12 months out of the year, so our police services are not only dealing with dirt roads but fly-in communities, and they're working alone. Many of our police service police officers are working remotely, alone in these communities, when we have 30% higher levels of violent crime in our communities. Our officers are dealing with it alone.

The mental health of our officers is also a challenge for us, and it's an issue across first nations all across Canada. We're dealing effectively with the issues of drugs, intergenerational trauma and the higher violent crime that comes with the drugs and the alcohol, and we're dealing with it effectively. We're also dealing, within our own services, with the mental issues that we have in dealing with those stresses as well.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

Thank you, Chief and President.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you very much, Chief Swamp.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

My clock reads 5:26, and we're going to be tight with time here, so it's four minutes to the Conservatives.

Go ahead, Mr. Melillo.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora—Kiiwetinoong, ON]

Thank you, Chair. In the interest of time, I'll try to be quick.

I'd like to come back to Inspector Kreisz.

You spoke about that coordination between OPP and NAPS. I know from where I lived in Kenora in Treaty 3 territory, there has been a lot of similar coordination with OPP and Treaty 3 police. I know that has stretched OPP thin. Obviously, Treaty 3 is underfunded and under-resourced.

I'm wondering if you could share the pressures that this coordination has put on OPP in Sioux Lookout and speak to it in that context.

[Insp Michael Kreisz]

It does put pressure on us, but you have to remember that northern communities are 100 kilometres apart, so oftentimes our officers can't respond directly to those 28 remote communities north of us.

I am responsible for Pickle Lake, and we do assist the Mishkeegogamang NAPS detachment when they're short, but it absolutely does impact staffing. We'll have only two officers working in Pickle Lake and, if they're responsible for additional communities, that puts a major strain on that detachment, for instance.

I would like to add that we all work together. Indigenous services are routinely backing up the OPP as well and, as Inspector Beaudin said, we see it as being all in this together. We're constantly trying to back each other up.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora—Kiiwetinoong, ON]

Thank you.

I'll share the rest of my time with Mr. Zimmer.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to our witnesses.

My questions will be for the members of the OPP.

A recent article in The Toronto Star dated September 18 says:

In a recent statement, a spokesperson for Solicitor General Michael Kerzner said “Ontario police services do not have the resources to attend residential addresses to confiscate previously lawful but now prohibited firearms from lawful gun owners.”

I've heard from your testimonies that your resources are already stretched thin. Do you support using those limited resources to confiscate law-abiding firearm owners' firearms?

[Insp Marcel Beaudin]

I'll agree with whatever the solicitor general said.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Yeah. Even just as an officer, you have enough issues with criminals and crime in the community and lack the resources to really tackle that issue. Then you're receiving this mandate federally and being tasked with collecting what belongs to law-abiding firearm owners. You're being tasked now with going after their firearms. Do you support that?

[Insp Marcel Beaudin]

At the end of day, there's a pile of things that are dropped on our plate for public safety. If there are ways we can focus on more nefarious activity, more organized crime and on keeping communities safe, that's probably better bang for our buck.