Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Oct. 29th, 2025

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

All of those sound really interesting. The more specific information you can give us, even after the fact in written form, would be very valuable for our committee and, therefore, for the recommendations that this committee puts forward.

You spoke very clearly about the return on the investment, and it makes complete sense that there would be one with this kind of community policing. Do you collect data? Do you have specific measures to show the return on investment, or is that possibly a gap? Is that something you're looking to refine?

[Chief Dwayne Zacharie]

I definitely think it's cheaper to build trust than to try to rebuild it after things have gone wrong. The investment in indigenous policing is paramount. We fill a gap. We fill a void. If we were to go away, as I said earlier, who would fill that gap and what would the cost be later?

There have been a few studies, actually, that show what it would cost for other police services to come in and try to fill the void it would create if we went away, and then you'd still be dealing with all of those trust issues.

Policing has a stigma attached to it, and in indigenous communities, we have to work really hard. Think about it this way: We're doing that job now. We're trying to provide safety and security to our community, and the model we employ speaks volumes about the type of people we have—

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Chief, I'm going to interrupt, if I may, because I only have about 30 seconds left.

I wanted to quickly ask you to describe the main infrastructure needs you have that you could point to.

[Chief Dwayne Zacharie]

Absolutely. We're in a building now that's over 20 years old. It needs tons of work. I know that in the province of Quebec, every single service needs infrastructure resourcing to be able to continue to provide services to their communities.

As I said before, some services don't have vehicles. They don't have technology. They don't have access to the Internet or good communications systems. All of these are areas where we need proper resourcing, and we need it quickly.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

Thank you very much. That was right on time, actually. You're only 10 seconds over. That was nicely done.

We go now for six minutes to the Bloc Québécois.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Chief Mathias, first, I am glad to be able to once again refer to you as “chief”. I congratulate you and thank you for being here.

I am particularly concerned about the situation in Winneway. I know you know that because I went to your office on the first day of my election campaign to talk about that situation and about the police in particular.

In practical terms, what are the consequences of not having a police force based in your community? Do you have any statistics to share with us about how crime on your streets has changed over the past 20 years, or since the Winneway police force was abolished? Is there a connection between the loss of an independent police force and an increase in crime?

[Chief Steeve Mathias]

When the Sûreté du Québec took over policing duties in Long Point, Winneway, in 2006, the Témiscamien was publishing monthly statistics on incidents occurring in Winneway. That went on for about a year, and we saw that there were more police reports in Winneway under the Sûreté du Québec than there were in the 17 or 18 other municipalities in Témiscamingue. The newspaper stopped publishing that data because it showed that there was a great need in Winneway and that the Sûreté du Québec had lost control of the situation in the community here.

Still today, when a police car drives down the hill in Winneway, people jump on social media to warn people to be careful because the police are in town. It seems to me that people are not supposed to be afraid of the police and that they should feel safer when they see a police car, but this is what it has come to. As the Kahnawake police chief, Mr. Zacharie, was saying, it all boils down to the approach that is taken. When the police come here, it is to issue fines for traffic violations or to lay charges against people.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

There was some hope that an Anishinabe police force would be set up. An agreement was signed by the Winneway community in 2023 to carry out a feasibility study. According to follow-ups that were conducted recently, in October 2024, on the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada's call to action number 28, the deliverables have been issued and the Government of Quebec and the federal government want to continue working to implement an Anishinabe police force.

Why is this project not moving forward? Is it a matter of funding or do you think there is more to it than that?

[Chief Steeve Mathias]

It is not a matter of funding because investments were made in the other two communities, Kebaowek and the Timiskaming first nation. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, two new police stations have been built there and the operating budgets for these two police forces have been tripled or quadrupled. We are very happy for them, because we know that those communities needed police forces to meet their needs, but meanwhile, nothing is happening in Winneway.

As I was saying earlier, what does Winneway have? We were given a small trailer that the police use to stretch their legs and use the washroom, and we are the ones paying to rent that trailer. We do not even have a budget and we do not have an agreement to pay for the expenses related to that trailer. It is unbelievable.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Your community of Long Point does not officially have a land base in Winneway. How does that affect your capacity to have an independent police force?

[Chief Steeve Mathias]

With regard to the community's land base, since Winneway does not have reserve status, we began working on the co-operation agreement that you mentioned earlier, which was ratified in June 2022. We agreed on the territory that should be covered and we defined the boundaries of the territory where the police force would have jurisdiction, so we have that.

Even as far as the Department of Public Safety is concerned, we do not need reserve status. As long as we have jurisdiction, that is enough to grant authority to a police force.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Meegwetch.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

Thank you very much.

We will now go to our second round of questioning. This time it's a five-minute round.

We will begin with Mr. Stevenson.

[William Stevenson, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you.

I'll direct my questions to both of you. You can each have a turn at this.

We've heard testimony that your nations have been pretty much underfunded and are not at the same funding level when it comes to policing as compared with other municipalities. In your talks with other nations, I'm wondering if there is a formula where you can point to examples across the country and say, “These guys are leading by example. They're doing a good job.” It sounds to me like they would all be in the same situation, but I'm wondering if there's some sort of formula where you can say, “This is the minimum standard we need to have proper and effective policing within our area so that we can self-determine our own policing.”

Chief Mathias, I guess we can start with you. What level does it need to brought up to? Do you have other examples of where these guys are doing well and this is what you need to do to get there?

[Chief Steeve Mathias]

You know, I don't think it will be a one-size-fits-all. I think it has to be self-determined by each first nation in terms of how they want to get themselves organized and how they want to govern and administer the delivery of the policing services.

I'll give you an example. I worked on that feasibility study to create the regional police with the two other Algonquin communities from the region here. We built that feasibility study into the concept of our regional police. We introduced in there the Seven Grandfather Teachings of how we want to govern ourselves with this regional police.

We're introducing cultural relevancy into that. As Mr. Zacharie mentioned earlier, it's building trust. We have to do that. When our approached our people—we made a PowerPoint presentation to our people on how we're going to build our police services and our new stand-alone police service—they really appreciated it. They've now made the link between the relevancy of our culture and the delivery of that service.

[William Stevenson, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Can you expand on that a little bit? Where do you need to go? What do you need to get there that you're missing at this point?

[Chief Steeve Mathias]

We need to get the proper means and resources. We need a proper agreement with recurrent funding that is long-term, not just a two-year agreement or so. We need to have some stability to maintain our people working in that department afterwards.

[William Stevenson, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

A five- or 10-year program would definitely give you some stability, then.

Can we go to Mr. Zacharie as well for his input on that?

[Chief Dwayne Zacharie]

That's a great question.

As a member of the First Nations Chiefs of Police Association, I can say we actually did the work already. We've actually provided a copy to Public Safety Canada of the costing and the differences.

We have seen that mainstream policing, for lack of a better term, costs about $250,000 per officer to hire them, train them and do all of that stuff. In first nation policing, when we break down our agreements, sometimes we're getting $150,000 per head, if we're lucky. Why is there a $100,000 difference between officers, when we're doing the same job?

As one of the earlier panellists said, in first nation communities the rate of serious crime is 37% higher. Addiction and suicide...all of those rates are higher in first nation communities. Our officers are doing it by themselves, sometimes with no backup. There are huge differences.

Think about it. If you have a service with 100 officers and there's a $100,000 difference per officer, what's the difference in cost? It's pretty easy. Even if it's 10 officers, it's a $1 million difference in your budget at the end of the day on the bottom line.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Jamie Schmale]

We go now to another five-minute round.

Go ahead, Ms. Lavack.

[Ginette Lavack, Liberal, St. Boniface—St. Vital, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the three witnesses for being here with us today.

Chief Mathias, my colleague brought up the fact that you have an agreement with Quebec to set up a police force, but that has not yet materialized. Apart from a lack of funding, could you share your thoughts and ideas on the main obstacles that continue to delay the establishment of the police force?

[Chief Steeve Mathias]

Honestly, when it comes to the pilot project to create a regional police force for the three communities, I don't think it is a matter of funding in our case. I think it's more of a political issue. Quebec told us that if we want a police force or a police station like the other two communities, then we have to agree to reserve status for Winneway.

This is a political game. We have not been able to come to an agreement on all the conditions associated with reserve status for Winneway. We don't agree on the boundaries, and Quebec wants to limit the size of the territory, while we want to maximize it because we are not looking solely at housing needs. We also want to think about economic development and create an economic base for our community.

Thus, there are political issues at play that are preventing us from moving forward with this project. I think that it's unfortunate and dishonest that the government is playing this game and that we are being given an ultimatum to the detriment of public safety in my community. Quebec is asking us to agree to reserve status before it will give us the resources and means to set up our own police station in Winneway. That's blackmail.

[Ginette Lavack, Liberal, St. Boniface—St. Vital, MB]

Do you have any ideas as to how to break this impasse?

[Chief Steeve Mathias]

Ms. Lavack, I was hoping that my participation in the committee meeting this evening could be part of the solution and could help us to break the impasse that we are at right now. Otherwise, we could go the legal route. We haven't sought a legal opinion. We haven't had a police force in Winneway for 20 years. That is not just an indigenous right. It's a fundamental right under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. In our opinion, it's a matter of human rights. Everyone has the right to feel safe where they live, so legal recourse could be a solution.

If not, we will contact the media, programs like Enquête or W5, and ask them to do a documentary so that we can speak out publicly about how we are being mistreated in Winneway. What have we done to these two governments to deserve being treated differently from the other two communities that have received all kinds of support and resources to increase their community services? I have no idea.

[Ginette Lavack, Liberal, St. Boniface—St. Vital, MB]

Thank you, Chief Mathias.

Mr. Chair, do I have any time left?