Evidence of meeting #30 for Industry and Technology in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was china.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

McCuaig-Johnston  Senior Fellow, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Karaguesian  Visiting Lecturer, Department of Economics, McGill University, As an Individual
Taylor  Chief Executive Officer, Beachman Motor Company Ltd.
Vlanich  Executive Director, Canadian Association of Moldmakers

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Good morning, everyone. I hope you've had a good week so far.

We're meeting once again to continue our study on electric vehicles.

We have two witnesses with us here in person in the first round. Then we'll have two witnesses with us in the second.

Just as a friendly reminder to witnesses, if you are using your earpiece and it's plugged in but not on your ear, please make sure it's placed on the sticker in front of you in order to ensure that we are protecting the health and well-being of our interpreters.

Mr. Bains is joining us online today. I can confirm that all the tests have been completed.

With that, today we have Julian Karaguesian, a visiting lecturer from the economics department at McGill University; and Margaret McCuaig-Johnston, a senior fellow from the University of Ottawa. They are appearing as individuals.

Witnesses, thank you for availing yourselves to the committee this morning. You'll have up to five minutes each for introductory remarks, followed by questions from the various political parties represented around the table today.

Madam McCuaig-Johnston, I'll turn the floor over to you to begin.

Margaret McCuaig-Johnston Senior Fellow, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I've been a supporter of EVs for many years. At Industry Canada, in 1995, my team and I introduced technology road maps to Canada jointly with industry leaders, and one of the first was in automotive technologies. In 2008, as ADM of energy technologies at NRCan, I initiated the technology road map for electric vehicles. I wanted Canadian companies and researchers to have a major role in the sector. This will be significantly aided by Canada's automotive strategy and Ontario government initiatives.

However, I have a major concern about the introduction of Chinese EVs into the sector.

First, our auto sector is under major stress with the imposition of U.S. tariffs in the heavily integrated North American market. This is not a good time for cheap imports to compete with cars our own workers make. In Brazil and Hungary, Chinese cars assembled from kits, never from local suppliers, are made in heavily roboticized factories, so they wouldn't support the same number of jobs that our own factories have.

Second, dozens of parts in each Chinese EV are made with aluminum from Uyghur forced labour. A 2024 report from Human Rights Watch says this includes Chinese brands, but also western vehicles including Tesla, Toyota, Volkswagen and GM cars made in China. Bauxite is shipped thousands of miles to Xinjiang to be processed into aluminum by free-cost Uyghur forced labour and then shipped from there to car and parts companies. It's illegal to import products into Canada made in whole or in part with forced labour, but the staff positions at ESDC and GAC related to forced labour are being wound up in the cuts, except for a comms function, and it is not a priority in GAC's departmental plan for 2026-27.

Also, a key customs notice on forced labour has disappeared from the government website, and the new notice regarding Chinese EV firms lists what companies must comply with but makes no mention of forced labour. New legislation and an agency promised just last year seem to no longer be proceeding. Does this government no longer care about forced labour? The U.S. trade representative recently launched a section 301 investigation of Canada's implementation of forced labour policies under CUSMA, with up to 25% tariffs resulting across the board if those efforts are inadequate. This is not the time to be dropping the ball on forced labour.

Third, there is a risk involving the Baidu software in Chinese EVs, including western vehicles made there. It sends data from the cameras, microphones and GPS back to China. Their national intelligence law requires companies to spy, if requested. Cars with this software are regularly updated remotely from China. A U.S. Department of Energy report released last year on the integration of EVs with the electricity grid says that a synchronized surge via charging vehicles could cause brownouts and market disruptions.

This Baidu software should be stripped out when the cars arrive and replaced with the BlackBerry QNX used in North American cars. If not, Beijing will have very detailed data on all the streets and buildings in Canada, as well as passengers' personal information. Of course, all military, CSIS, CSE, RCMP and even departmental locations should not permit Chinese vehicles.

Fourth, in Europe, they saw that Chinese vehicles were being priced 10% to 15% below local competition, just enough to make the sale. This year they are requiring Chinese companies to negotiate comparable prices, but here in Canada, we're going in the other direction, requiring 50% of the vehicles to be below $35,000.

The government has said it wants Chinese auto joint ventures here. Already, BYD has said it won't do that. It wants to assemble independently. If we did have joint ventures, they should be more than 60% western-owned, with Canadian management, workers and suppliers, especially in aluminum and steel, QNX software and technology transfer to the western firm. We have to be prepared to walk away from the table if they do not agree.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Thank you very much, Ms. McCuaig-Johnston.

Mr. Karaguesian, the floor is yours for up to five minutes.

Julian Karaguesian Visiting Lecturer, Department of Economics, McGill University, As an Individual

Thank you, Chair.

It's an honour to come and give testimony before this committee of Canada's House of Commons. It's a first for me. It's a pleasure and honour to be here. I'm not representing any institution, public or private or otherwise. I'm a former special adviser at the Canadian finance ministry. I currently teach economics at McGill University. I worked at Finance for over 25 years. I frequently provide commentary to Canadian and global media on economic issues. I am affiliated with no party. I have no official ideology.

My interest in accepting the invitation to come and speak to you today is with respect to Canada's long-term prosperity, the livelihood of everyday Canadians, and our children, who will inherit this fine country of ours. My comments are limited to the international aspects of the government's EV and other related policies, including the recent tariff agreement with China.

I'll start with the big picture. I don't think it's an overstatement to say that Canada is facing the biggest challenge to its economic model since the 1930s. The model we have is based on deep globalization and international trade, much of it particularly with the United States. This model is under attack from the Trump administration. The intentional weaponization of our integration with the United States has exposed what was once a good thing as now a far-reaching dependency. The auto and steel tariffs are the point of the spear of this weaponization of integration in trade. This comes at a time of converging crises in Canada and in some ways globally. We face severe housing and health care shortages and a cost of living crisis. There's geopolitical conflict in the world. There's climate change and more. We have our hands full. You have your hands full. The Government of Canada and its machinery of policy-making has its hands full.

This attack on our economic model should be seen in the longer and broader context of a U.S. border that has been thickening since the aftermath of the 9/11 attack in 2001. This and the U.S. withdrawal from the global system are longer-term trends, as is the decline of Canada's automobile sector. At the turn of the century, we produced three million vehicles a year. Twenty-five years later, we produce 1.2 million vehicles a year. We were the seventh-largest automobile producer in the world. We're not even in the top 10 now. Over this same time, much of this lost production has gone to Mexico. I have nothing against Mexico. That's where the production migrated. They've emerged as the world's fifth-largest automobile producer.

Much of the loss of our production has come from the Big Three, which now collectively produce only 300,000 vehicles in Canada. President Trump, with tariffs and other measures, aims to get the rest of this back to the United States, to get steel and automobiles back to the swing states, which are crucial for a permanent majority for MAGA. That's what they want. They're open about it.

Ontario and other parts of the country have felt the loss of this production in profound ways. The Czech Republic, or Czechia, with 11 million people, produces more vehicles than Canada.

With electric vehicles, Canada has an opportunity to start over and plug into global supply chains, not just North American ones, and to be a global player, not just a regional one. Canada has many of the key fundamentals to be part of global supply chains in a fundamental way, with critical minerals, mass electricity production and more. We have an emerging EV battery industry.

The federal government's new automobile strategy and the opening of our economy to Chinese EVs is a step in the right direction. The new tariff deal and the new strategic partnership agreed with China paves the way to diversifying our trade and investment, not just with the second-largest economy in the world—in purchasing power parity terms, the largest economy in the world—but also with the entire global south, where 75% of the world's population lives and over 55% of the global economy resides. Our future prosperity depends on trading with the entire planet and diversifying.

Some critics have made a big deal of the 49,000 Chinese EVs coming to Canada. Why? This is one and a half days of production in China and less than 3% of our market. They're a manufacturing superpower and we're a natural resource and energy superpower: We have a natural trading relationship. Surely, we could do much more both ways.

We need to have a quid pro quo. To build our export markets out and reduce our dependency, we have to trade with the entire planet, and there will be asks from the rest of the world. I believe this is in our vital national interest.

Why are we hesitant to do this as a nation? It's understandable. A big part of the reason is fear. We fear a reaction from certain powerful interests south of the border. The Trump administration, and previous administrations since about 2016, have created an anti-China narrative and a related fear, in some cases almost hysterical, of China. It's not a fact-based narrative, mostly. It's not a Canadian narrative. It was not made here. The point of this narrative, in my opinion, is to maintain leverage over Canada by preventing us from flexing our wings and trading with the rest of the world and reducing our excess—

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Mr. Karaguesian, I'm going to have to cut you off, as we're a little over the allocated amount of time, but there will be opportunities throughout the discourse to follow here.

I always like when we have diverging viewpoints. It makes for a good conversation.

With that, Mr. Guglielmin, the floor will be yours for six minutes to start us off.

Michael Guglielmin Conservative Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to both of the witnesses for their testimony.

Ms. McCuaig-Johnston, you appeared before the international trade committee on March 12, and you testified that Chinese EVs carry surveillance software, cameras, microphones, GPS tracking, and, more alarmingly, Chinese companies are legally required to co-operate with the Chinese government's intelligence services. Given all that, does the Liberal government's deal to import Chinese-made vehicles at nearly zero tariffs pose a national security threat to Canada?

11:10 a.m.

Senior Fellow, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Margaret McCuaig-Johnston

I would say that there are significant risks. We would need to, before they arrive, set up guardrails. One guardrail is that the Baidu software should be stripped out. I understand some Chinese EVs have QNX, but we'd have to verify that the data is not stored in China. We should not have any Canadian data stored in China, and that means stripping out the Baidu software when the vehicles arrive, and there are other measures if we're going to have manufacturing of Chinese EVs here.

I would mention that, while the Chinese EVs would be 3% of the total number of cars sold in Canada—they'll get to 70,000, I'm sure, in the second year—70,000 is more than half of all of the EVs sold in Canada last year. It's a big number when you look at it in the market of EVs.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Guglielmin Conservative Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON

For the record, just per your knowledge, are there any provisions in the current agreement that would prohibit this surveillance technology from being installed in the Chinese vehicles when they're imported here into Canada?

11:15 a.m.

Senior Fellow, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Margaret McCuaig-Johnston

We haven't seen the details of the agreement. Canadian officials would have to inform the Chinese officials that we are going to do this. There's nothing, as far as I'm aware, that would prevent it from being done.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Guglielmin Conservative Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON

Would you say that, before signing this deal, the Canadian government would have been well aware of the potential security risks with this software?

11:15 a.m.

Senior Fellow, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Margaret McCuaig-Johnston

The deal was negotiated in a cone of silence. The Canadian manufacturers were not involved at all. Indeed, they were reassured that EVs were not on the table and that, if they were put on the table, there would be a conversation with them. That didn't happen, so the negotiators did not get the benefit of the manufacturers' knowledge. I don't know whether they got the benefit of CSIS and CSE, but CSIS and CSE are very well aware of the risks of the Baidu technology.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Guglielmin Conservative Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON

About a year ago, in March 2025, the former industry minister, now finance minister, François-Philippe Champagne, in a response to a question on whether or not the Liberals would get rid of the 100% tariff, said:

We're going to stand strong....We want to protect our industry. We want to protect our workers. We want to protect our communities.

He also affirmed that China doesn't respect the rules:

They’re dumping products here, and cheap products, and therefore that would be hurting our Canadian economy and industry.

If that were true in 2025, has anything changed since then, to 2026, when that wouldn't be true? What does the policy reversal say to automakers and parts manufacturers that are already investing in Canada?

11:15 a.m.

Senior Fellow, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Margaret McCuaig-Johnston

Nothing has changed from that time. I would say that around the cabinet table, Minister Champagne is probably the most knowledgeable about the risks of China. He dealt with the Michaels. He dealt with research security challenges and put in place Canada's current research security system, which is a model for the world. It's the best in the world. He's dealt with Chinese investment problems. He's dealt with all kinds of risks. So he is very knowledgeable about this.

I think our own manufacturers are at serious risk here.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Guglielmin Conservative Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON

In your opening testimony, you mentioned forced labour for EVs and other things manufactured in China. Specifically, you mentioned the Uyghurs, but also, on top of that, we have the surveillance issue and no binding investment conditions.

Now, the government calls this an affordability measure. Do you think vehicles built with forced labour, that transmit Canadian data and undercut our auto sector, could ever be considered good affordability tools for the Canadian public?

11:15 a.m.

Senior Fellow, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Margaret McCuaig-Johnston

I would not trade off the torture and armed surveillance of Uyghurs in Xinjiang for a marginal added number of cheap cars in Canada. That's not an equal trade-off by any means. I was surprised that the government did it. I was very disappointed.

I think it's therefore up to the government now to reassure Canadians that there will be no EVs entering Canada from China unless they are entirely free of components produced by forced labour. The customs notice for Chinese EVs does not mention forced labour at all. It mentions things like plant legislation and motor vehicle safety rules and so on that the cars must comply with, but it doesn't say anything about forced labour. It should. That should be one of the measures Canada takes.

We can't just take their word for it. There has to be a commitment that there will be transparency in the supply chain, because the forced labour comes from the aluminum in dozens of parts of each EV. We have to have assurance. The Chinese vehicle manufacturers need to display for Canadian officials the exact supply chain—where their aluminum comes from, what happens with the bauxite as it's on its way from aluminum and where the bauxite is from—before we can be reassured.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Ms. McCuaig-Johnston, I'll have to end it there. Mr. Guglielmin is now 45 seconds over his allotted time. There will be an opportunity to provide more after that.

Mr. Ma, the floor is yours for six minutes.

Michael Ma Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Due to the time limit, I'll be asking for very sharp, precise answers to the following questions for Ms. McCuaig-Johnston.

Do you have an advanced degree in technology and cybersecurity, yes or no?

11:20 a.m.

Senior Fellow, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Michael Ma Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Senior Fellow, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Margaret McCuaig-Johnston

—but I have spent 37 years in that business.

Michael Ma Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

I'm sorry. Like I said, I need to get short answers, please.

11:20 a.m.

Senior Fellow, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Michael Ma Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

You belong to the China Strategic Risks Institute. Does this institute specifically look for risks when there isn't one, yes or no?

11:20 a.m.

Senior Fellow, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Michael Ma Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

So why is it a risks institute?