Evidence of meeting #103 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rights.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Glenn Rollans  President, Association of Canadian Publishers
Alupa Clarke  Beauport—Limoilou, CPC
Victoria Owen  Chief Librarian, University of Toronto Scarborough, Canadian Federation of Library Associations
John Degen  Executive Director, Writers' Union of Canada
Denise Amyot  President and Chief Executive Officer, Colleges and Institutes Canada
Kate Edwards  Executive Director, Association of Canadian Publishers
Mark Hanna  Associate Dean, The Business School, Humber Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning, and Representative, Colleges and Institutes Canada
Katherine McColgan  Executive Director, Canadian Federation of Library Associations

4:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Writers' Union of Canada

John Degen

My organization also supported the Marrakesh treaty. However, we view TPMs as simply a business model. The solution to accessing works behind TPMs is payment—payment and licensing. It's really that simple. In the licensing environment, the lock is unlocked.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

Thank you.

Mr. Rollans, during your opening statement, you mentioned clarifying fair dealing. This is something we've heard from a number of publishers and licensing collectives. I'm hoping that you can clarify what “clarifying fair dealing” means to you.

4:10 p.m.

President, Association of Canadian Publishers

Glenn Rollans

When we were looking at the proposed amendments before they were passed into law, we raised the issue—particularly around the inclusion of education as a purpose for fair dealing—as being something that was lacking the good fences that make good neighbours.

We have no differences with the project of education in Canada. We support it. We think it is obviously a public good. We have been through it ourselves. We have kids that rely on it. We're not anti-education, but “education” is such a broad word, and it essentially replaced a similar phrase in the act, which was “private study”. Education thus opened the opportunity for systematized, broad-scale, high-volume copying that was intended to avoid payment for work that was being used beyond legal limits.

We saw the education sector—after committing to not abandon licences—abandon the licences and immediately substitute a policy into this very large grey zone that was created by the very broad word, the inclusion of “education”. The specific policy looked to us, curiously, exactly like the terms of the licences that were abandoned.

Nature abhors a vacuum. We can't go back and turn back the clock. I wish we had been there with a policy before the education sector was. That policy, pushed out broadly in post-secondary and in the K-to-12 world, essentially defined the practice as if it were defining law. This is the body, the Parliament of Canada, that makes law. I think “clarifying” means substituting policy, potentially, or adding words to the legislation that make it very clear that what is not intended is systematic, large-scale copying that seriously compromises the rights of the people who created the works.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

Mr. Degen, do you want to comment?

4:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Writers' Union of Canada

John Degen

When I think of fair dealing in an educational context, I think of a student going to the library and photocopying an article for research or private study. I have two degrees. I am a bit older than the students of today, so I didn't have a lot of digital resources. However, I wasn't without digital resources in my time. I completed my education, for which I had a rather large student debt, with research and private study as my fair dealing options, and I felt unrestricted in that education. I really don't think, despite any technological advances today, that there has been a need for an expansion on that.

What we're talking about when we talk about fair dealing being applied to copying in schools, is not the student going to the library and copying for research and private study. We are talking about published books that are full of works that we have written and have not given permission to be sold to students. The permission comes with the licence. We need to reapply the licence.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

Thank you very much.

We're going to move to Mr. Masse. You have seven minutes.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

I don't disagree that the cost of education has certainly not been related to this situation specifically. It might be part of the overall thing, but if we want to solve that problem, having no educational fees for university and post-secondary education would be a fairer thing for students. It would eliminate them as pawns between different parties in the decisions of courts, in terms of who pays for what in the materials for them to become educated. However, hopefully that is a separate thing as we look at this. It's almost a distraction in some respects, because we want something we can control.

One of the things I am concerned with, though, is the digital trends that are taking place and compensation, and the things we can't see for the future. Has anyone looked at different models, in terms of what other countries have done?

I have another question, but perhaps we can go quickly around and give examples for the committee to look at.

4:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Writers' Union of Canada

John Degen

I mentioned that we're looking at a blockchain-enabled rights management system. That would be digital for sure.

Just to back up a little.... I know we are in an age of technological advancement and I know education is changing. I have two kids who are heading to university in a couple of years. I have been very involved in their education all along, so I've seen all the changes happening. I've also seen that in their backpacks are photocopies, from kindergarten to where they are now, in grade 10. The digital shift is happening. It has not happened.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Can you answer the question? I have limited time, and I'm interested in whether you've looked at other models outside of Canada, from other countries, on how to deal with the change and authors and other creators being compensated? That's what I'm looking for right now.

4:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Writers' Union of Canada

John Degen

I think the course management systems that were mentioned on the other side here are widely in use around the world, but in other jurisdictions they're in a licensing environment.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Can you name any countries? If you can't now, it's okay.

4:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Writers' Union of Canada

John Degen

Sure. Go ahead, Kate.

April 26th, 2018 / 4:15 p.m.

Kate Edwards Executive Director, Association of Canadian Publishers

For a long time Australia has had a comprehensive licence that includes print and digital uses. It is a negotiated rate between the education sector and rights holders. We want to emphasize the content, regardless of format, and the Australian model addresses that quite elegantly.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Thank you.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy

Is there anyone else?

Ms. Owen.

4:15 p.m.

Chief Librarian, University of Toronto Scarborough, Canadian Federation of Library Associations

Victoria Owen

In changing legislation we would look for flexible language so that there would be an interpretation and, I think, the technological neutrality, so we don't get stuck in the kinds of things we did with the digital locks. It would apply regardless of the format of the material, so your statutory rights are secure in whatever format.

I think Australia does have some very good new legislation. They did a review of their copyright act. They had fair dealing, and I think they want to move toward fair use. It's much more flexible. They would think of introducing things like exceptions as “such as” so there's a broad interpretation.

Many countries around the world have contract overrides. I can give you the names of those countries.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Yes, you can follow-up.

4:15 p.m.

Chief Librarian, University of Toronto Scarborough, Canadian Federation of Library Associations

Victoria Owen

Also, you can override TPMs.

So, yes, there are very good examples around the world for all the things that certainly CFLA has asked for.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Thanks. Could you send that to us?

I know we have to create our own, but I'm looking for how this also fits with the bigger international picture later on, because it has been raised that we're out of step.

4:15 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Colleges and Institutes Canada

Denise Amyot

I don't have a specific example of other countries, but I'd like to share something that hasn't been said yet with respect to a change that is needed.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

I just cut off a previous witness.

4:20 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Colleges and Institutes Canada

Denise Amyot

You'll come back later. Okay.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

I have one other question, and I'm going to try to get both in really quickly.

Mr. Rollans, I want to touch on the study that was done for the Province of Ontario. It had three recommendations and conclusions. One of them wasn't to adjust fair dealing. Maybe you can highlight why that was the case and a little more on the study.

I thought the study was really good at introducing a lot of comprehensive arguments on the change of the digital world and the complications, but fair dealing was not one of the recommendations.

4:20 p.m.

President, Association of Canadian Publishers

Glenn Rollans

I can't. I confessed at the beginning that I'm an Alberta publisher. I'm not familiar with the study. Perhaps Kate my colleague has a better handle on that.

4:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Association of Canadian Publishers

Kate Edwards

Is this the study that our association commissioned?