Evidence of meeting #110 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was publishers.
NDP
Vice-Chair, Canadian Copyright Institute
It's just to say that the price that Access Copyright is offering a world repertoire for I think is unbeatable.
It is true that some high-end publishers are charging very high fees, and that kind of puts things out of skew, but you can get practically everything from Access Copyright. It's on an exclusion basis, so everything that isn't listed as excluded is there. You have almost everything.
Copyright Officer and Manager, E-Learning and Reserve Services, University of Guelph
There are significant publishers that are excluded from an academic standpoint as well. We have some already. Even when we had an Access Copyright licence, we had to obtain transactional licences outside of it, because there were publishers that were excluded.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
There seems to be at least unanimity that the Copyright Board is not working well enough for Canadians. I know that much from my knowledge of this panel and others. That's not to be a complainer of it—you can get into a whole debate—but there seems to be at least consensus that this is not a functioning environment at the moment to benefit everyone involved.
With regard to the purchasing of materials internationally—Guelph University would perhaps be the best to respond, but anyone else can chime in—what has been the trend? Is that increasing now that we have some major players that are international bodies basically reducing the sources you can get from, in terms of bundling and so forth? What type of purchasing is there? Has that shifted to be more international over the last number of years?
Copyright Officer and Manager, E-Learning and Reserve Services, University of Guelph
I think when we talk about scientific research or research generally—academic research—it has always been international. If a faculty member wants to get his or her research published in the most reputable journal in the field, if that happens to be a European journal or a U.S. journal, that's where they get it published and that's the information that everyone else in that field wants to read.
I don't think the shift to international, in terms of content, has been significant. It's significantly different than it was. I think it is the platforms through which we're buying it. There's been like a market consolidation. We're buying it from these five big publishers that dominate all of these highly reputed academic journals across the world, and they sell them as packages to us.
Copyright Officer and Manager, E-Learning and Reserve Services, University of Guelph
Yes.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
—from that situation. I guess the issue is not necessarily that the literature and the materials themselves have differed from...but the mere fact is that you have consolidation of the market and less competition from that consolidation.
Copyright Officer and Manager, E-Learning and Reserve Services, University of Guelph
Yes.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
Thank you.
With that, we will pass on to Ms. Ng.
You have seven minutes.
Liberal
Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON
Thank you, everybody, for joining us today on this important topic and for all of your views on it. It's really important.
At the end of the day, we're going to hear a lot from many people, and we hope that what we'll be able to do is put forward some recommendations as a committee on what we've learned.
A couple of you touched on what we should be thinking about.
Mr. Setzer, you were talking about the need for a narrowing of the educational provision. What, in your view, would that look like, for example? Could you maybe expand on that a little bit?
Vice-President, Publishing, International Publishers Association
Yes, of course.
Perhaps what I was mentioning—and we have seen it in other studies by other people, like a study by Professor Daniel Seng, who did the study for the World Intellectual Property Organization—is that it's hard to find in other countries a very broad exception just for education. Usually, they should be narrowed down or limited to comply with the three-step test of the Berne Convention: that it has to be a special case, that it “does not conflict with a normal exploitation of the work”, and that it “does not unreasonably prejudice the legitimate interests” of the rights owners.
I think it must be very clear what an exception for education means. For example, I was discussing this afternoon that if a student wants to make a copy for himself—as happens in many countries—he can do so, but students should not be allowed to make 30 copies for all of their colleagues in the class.
Liberal
Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON
Can I just pause there?
On that point, Ms. Martin and Ms. Graham, does that happen right now? We've certainly heard from post-secondary institutions that, overall, say they have a set of copyright policies that help guide their professors as well as their students. I know you'll speak for the University of Guelph, but in general, does that happen?
Chief Information Officer and Chief Librarian, Chief Librarian's Office, University of Guelph
Certainly not in our experience. We don't have a mechanism for monitoring, but I think that because we have had a set of practices in place for so long—there's a lot of communication that happens with new faculty who come to campus; there's engagement with students; and there are notices on copiers and scanners across the campus—our sense is that people understand what their responsibilities and rights are.
Liberal
Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON
To pick up a bit on what Mr. Setzer said, and on what Mr. Harnum said as well, when there is an ability for professors or students to use up to 10%—in the example, you gave around 10% of various course materials—then I suppose that within the realms of the legislation, that is in compliance of copyright. Do you not think so?
Chair, Canadian Copyright Institute
Can I comment?
The 10% or one chapter is something that was made up by the universities. It does not exist in legislation. This is important to understand.
Vice-Chair, Canadian Copyright Institute
For 20 years, what was allowed to be copied under an Access Copyright licence was up to 10%. They did that, they paid quite happily, and they were very happy to have permission to be able to do that. Then, suddenly, the 10% that was being licensed became what they considered to be, arbitrarily, fair dealing.
Copyright Officer and Manager, E-Learning and Reserve Services, University of Guelph
Ms. Ng, can I say something?
Liberal
Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON
Please do. The whole purpose of this is to help us understand.
Copyright Officer and Manager, E-Learning and Reserve Services, University of Guelph
We had 10% in our guidelines in 1984. When we implemented the fair dealing guidelines at the University of Guelph in 1984, 10% was the amount. It was, I believe, based on U.S. law on fair use in the U.S., which actually specifically allows for multiple copies to be made for teaching purposes. So, our fair dealing guidelines back then were based on what we believed to be fair practice in the sector at that time. They were not invented by Access Copyright. They existed before then.
Liberal
Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON
I'm going to try to get a quick response from everyone at the table, from each of your standpoints.
We want to look at a set of recommendations. What would be the one solution-based thing that you think we should be looking at here as we look at the act?
Chair, Canadian Copyright Institute
I think that it's finding a way, as I said in my document, to allow for fair dealing for individuals who want to copy, in an immediate way, two or three or four pages from a document for use for private study, and requiring that anything higher than that require a licence, if a licence is available. I think this is the law in the U.K., that fair dealing for education is allowed. However, if a licence like a collective licence is available, that licence must be used. That, to me, would be a good solution to the way it is now.
Right now what we're having is hundreds of million of copies being made without any compensation going to the authors or the publishers.
Liberal
Mary Ng Liberal Markham—Thornhill, ON
I'm going to move along just in the interest of time.
Ms. Caron.
Director, Collections and Membership Services, Toronto Public Library
We have an Access Copyright licence. For public libraries, that is sufficient in terms of the kind of copying that our customers do.
The one thing I would like to see implemented is that the contract language for our digital products is not allowed to override fair dealing.