Industry Committee on March 12th, 2020

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Your message has been heard.

I have one last question. Earlier, Mr. Lawford talked about the need for a public inquiry. Do you agree with him?

[Randall Baran-Chong]

Absolutely. We're almost kindred spirits on that. I came across his letter when we were doing our look at the stakeholders who were interested in this. If we had given our feedback of some of the solutions we thought of—it was very similar to the Australian solution—and if this was introduced months ago, back when they introduced their text message thing in November, we would not have some of these members in our group because it would have been prevented. They would have known about it in advance.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you very much.

My next question is for you, Ms. Schroeder. You talked about a prevention campaign and the challenge of transportation, particularly in rural areas. Could you tell us more about that? Is it actually more serious in rural areas? Are there proportionately more victims in rural areas? Could an assistance and awareness program for online shopping be part of the solution? Is there some technology that is more appropriate for seniors and that could better protect them?

[Kate Schroeder]

Further to that comment, my recommendations would be.... In rural communities, they do not necessarily have access to many different social services. The greater the population, there are more social services, more facilities and more activities that people can be involved in. When we're looking at rural communities, where awareness, programming, documentation and all of those things are out in print, again—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Ms. Schroeder, unfortunately that's your time. Maybe the next person will let you continue.

Mr. Masse.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Schroeder, if you want to finish, please go ahead.

[Kate Schroeder]

There is a need for a campaign, or to make sure that those resources.... It speaks to the need for a collaborative approach. There is a need to ensure the information that is out there and available is shared among all different social services, including banks, insurance companies and telecommunication companies. In places that are less populated or more rural in nature, that same information and those same resources must be made available to everybody in that demographic.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

How do the seniors you're working with right now take advice from the companies with regard to their privacy? I'm less convinced this has been a high priority for them with regard to the frustration, and where we are with regard to a particular spot. In fact, we know there are not a lot of resources for fraud prevention. Even the RCMP admitted here that sometimes police direct people to the wrong place.

Given the fact that people are paying so much out of their pockets for this type of device, whether it be a land line or a mobile device, are you hearing any support coming from the telcos to help with fraud directed at seniors?

[Kate Schroeder]

To be honest, I haven't seen a ton.

Unfortunately, my experience is usually after the fraud has occurred. It has already happened, so that prevention piece hasn't really worked in those cases.

However, I would definitely agree with your comments that there appears to be a lack of support in terms of reporting, dealing with that fraud: where to go, how to report. I think there is a lack of support from the telecommunication companies in terms of providing guidance on the primary scams that are impacting their clients currently. I definitely think there could be a more collaborative approach in terms of their running those campaigns for their client base.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

That's where I'm looking for balance. There's an immense amount of wealth being generated from consumers on this, an immense amount of money going to organized crime or fraudsters, whether it be petty or not, and there doesn't seem to be a proportionate response in dealing with this issue for the people who continue to be victims.

For the victims in your community, what supports are they provided? Is there any counselling? You have people who not only become victims—as Mr. Lawford mentioned, it's not a crime until you actually lose it—but also I know there are people who won't even go public about it. They feel shame. Their self-esteem is lost. They're embarrassed.

Do you know of any supports out there? I know our Windsor police and a few others try to do what they can, but there aren't any core services. Victims services are needed.

[Kate Schroeder]

What I've noticed in the cases we've been involved in is that it differs from province to province and territory to territory. It's very jurisdiction-based. I believe they have specific dedicated hotlines for people in Alberta and B. C.

However, I think there is a definite need for an overarching support system, a centralized support system for people. Based on the situations we've had, when we've reached out to police to report fraud, we've had varying degrees of success. We've had really great local detachments that have gone to see these clients, to help them, to provide guidance on what to do. We've also had the opposite, to be frank.

I definitely think we need a more robust, streamlined approach on what individuals can expect, what seniors can expect, in terms of what to do.

The process to report fraud at financial institutions is also very difficult. The forms are long and confusing to people, and there's not a lot of support there either.

There's a definite need for all of these people and all of these agencies to come together to provide better support.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Mr. Baran-Chong, you mentioned the $100, but I guess your message is what we've heard from many other experts already, that prevention is the best strategy.

How would you rank the response and prevention in terms of when you've reached out on this? Where do you think you are along the road to gaining some of the things you noted here, which could prevent some of the things you were a victim of, in the coalition that you support?

[Randall Baran-Chong]

Other victims and I have offered our support to the telcos numerous times and have received nothing but silence so far.

If it's an industry that is truly service-oriented and talks about how its best interest is in how to serve and protect us, it isn't involving us at all. So far when they've tried to roll things out...without the fingerprints of the users themselves, it has clearly failed.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

You're putting some warning bells out there.

With regard to where we're headed now, where do you think the opportunity lies, if we do something now—I know it's calling for a prediction—in six months from now or a year from now? What do you think is going to happen if we ignore those warning bells from the people who have been taken in by fraud on this?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

You have five seconds

[Randall Baran-Chong]

As Senator Wyden in the United States has identified, this is just waiting to be a national security risk, with the takeover of officials' accounts, for example.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you.

I'm going to check with the committee on whether they would like to continue with the next round. We have some study business to approve.

Is it okay to go with the next round and then stay a bit past one o'clock, or would members like us to stop and deal with the committee business with respect to studies?

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

I'm okay with stopping.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Okay.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I have one last question if I could get it in.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Unfortunately, you're completely out of time, Mr. Masse.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Then I would like to continue with the witnesses since we have them here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Okay.

MP Gray.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Sorry, Madam Chair, but I have another commitment so I won't be able to stay later.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

It's the same for me, Chair.