Industry Committee on March 12th, 2020

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Lawford, I'm wondering if you had a chance to review the transcripts from the witnesses we had a couple of days ago. As you know, we heard from the CRTC—

[John Lawford]

Yes.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

and the RCMP.

We also heard from Bell, Rogers and Telus.

Each one of those major carriers has distinct approaches and different programs that they are suggesting will block and filter.

[John Lawford]

Yes.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Did you have any comments on any of the approaches that were outlined by the carriers?

[John Lawford]

Sure.

The baseline is, let's block calls that come from an obviously wrong number. Everybody accepts that. That's done.

The second level is this STIR/SHAKEN stuff. What the big companies don't like is that this is a protocol that you just run on any third party app or on your phone. It will block calls. The calls get tagged as suspicious. Then it's up to you whether you want to block them or not with your software and how you set it.

Phone companies don't necessarily make that much money on that, but it works fairly effectively. There may be problems with how it's implemented transparently and equally. But we'll leave that aside for now. STIR/SHAKEN is what should fix things. It doesn't—they're quite right—catch calls that go outside IP and go through the phone legacy networks. But let's leave that aside, too.

What Bell and Telus are both doing at the network level is...systems that have a sort of different approach. Telus will require a caller to punch in extra numbers in an effort to put a speed bump there. I believe you can get around that if you're a good programmer. It may or may not work. They may or may not be selling that to other providers or to other people who have an involvement with the phone system. They may be selling it directly to customers. The end game, I think, is that they probably want to sell it to customers.

Bell has a different approach, which is network-level blocking which comes with more concerns about how it's being blocked, why it's being blocked, what the system is. That's the secret proceeding going on at the CRTC right now. I think Bell would also like to sell it to consumers at the end. But I don't know. They have the control, as was mentioned, unlike some other carriers because most stuff transits their networks.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Mr. Gamble, it's the same question.

You identified the reality that this is really going to skew competition. It will disadvantage smaller carriers.

Based on the merits of the disparate approaches that were outlined by the carriers, do you have any comments?

[Matthew Gamble]

I believe they're trying their best but they are working in a system where they have imperfect data. With the telemarketing integrated system we had years ago, it was only based on a phone number. That's really the only point we have. Until we add more points to the system, such as where calls are coming from, like the actual sources, then filtering will be just trying, with our best effort, to pit machine against machine.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Lawford said that he would be in favour of open and public hearings by the CRTC. Is that something you would favour as well?

[Matthew Gamble]

On the issue of SIM swapping, yes.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Yes, you would, okay.

Mr. Lawford, you identified that the U.S. has done a better job. Specifically, you referred to the U.S. Telephone Consumer Protection Act. Would you be in favour of a similar approach being adopted in Canada?

[John Lawford]

Yes, I think that the CRTC needs a little more jurisdiction to try to address fraud more directly. At the moment, wire fraud, if you will, isn't an offence in Canada. It's an offence to do fraud after you make a connection with somebody on a phone call. What CRTC can only do now is go after you for the facts of the robocalls, but when it comes to the fraud, they don't really, like Mr. Scott said, have any jurisdiction there. I think that's the missing piece.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Okay, and—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Unfortunately, that's all the time we have for you, Mr. Ehsassi.

Mr. Lemire, you have six minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for your presentation. I would like to say that it comes at a time when I have just run into a senior citizen in my riding who told me that she was the victim of a major fraud. I don't think it was over the phone, but this conversation confirms the importance of our work.

I would also like to introduce Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, who is the Bloc member for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot and who also deals with issues related to industry and international trade.

My first question is about your expectations of the CRTC, and of us, the lawmakers.

Mr. Lawford, you mentioned legislation against telephone fraud in particular. What concrete measures could be taken to help you or to ensure that the situation is regularized?

[John Lawford]

First, the CRTC should be encouraged to launch an inquiry into the SIM swap. It's a fairly minor problem at the moment, but soon it's going to get worse.

Second, as I said, the CRTC is sort of caught by the legislation, which doesn't give it enough power. I'm not exactly sure what to suggest for this organization, other than more tools to help them study fraudulent activities. There are some small weak spots in the current procedures, but they are too [inaudible] for you.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Gamble, do you have anything to add about your expectations of the CRTC and of us as lawmakers?

[Matthew Gamble]

Not right now, thank you.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

My second question is for both of you, given your respective areas of expertise. Do you feel that the CRTC and the RCMP understand the significance of IP telephony and automated calls in relation to fraud?

[Matthew Gamble]

I believe they're trying their best to do so, but technology is always moving faster, and the minute they understand one, a new one happens.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Perfect.

Mr. Gamble, earlier, you mentioned that small companies were at a disadvantage compared to the large companies. I specifically asked the representatives from the three telecommunications companies who appeared on Tuesday whether they were prepared to provide assistance. They all answered that they were prepared to take action.

Do you feel that this is actually the case? Furthermore, how could we help the small players more?

[Matthew Gamble]

I believe they want to help, but the way the standards were designed makes it very difficult to do so. There needs to be some fundamental changes in how we design STIR/SHAKEN to make that a reality.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

There is also the whole issue of the time these companies need to meet the standards, since the technology is difficult to implement. Do you believe that they are acting in good faith right now?

[Matthew Gamble]

As someone who knows most of the technology vendors they use, yes, they're working the best they can.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Lawford, do you feel that the CRTC has been slow to respond to people's concerns on this issue? Do you think the organization could have been more proactive from the outset?