Evidence of meeting #5 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was china.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Thank you.
If I have a brief minute, I'd like to ask her about organ harvesting—
5:25 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
I'm going to turn to you, for the last time, Mr. Saint-Jacques, so thank you very much for being here today and contributing to the subcommittee's work. I still have a question for you.
Earlier, you brought up New Zealand's approach. You're the only witness to have mentioned it so far. Could you tell us a bit more about what New Zealand is doing exactly?
5:30 p.m.
Consultant, Former Ambassador of Canada to the People's Republic of China, As an Individual
New Zealand has never formally stated that it was banning Huawei's involvement in building the infrastructure. However, when New Zealand companies request permission to use Huawei's products, that permission is denied. What that means is that, without ever stating publicly that Huawei is not allowed to participate in building its infrastructure, New Zealand is, in practice, following that policy.
I would also say, more broadly speaking, that we have a lot to learn from countries such as New Zealand and Australia when it comes to interference and intimidation. Australia has passed four laws to prevent interference in domestic matters. I think we should look to Australia as a model so that we can update our own legislation.
5:30 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Are you saying that Australia and New Zealand handle things differently in cases involving victims or activists who fled and are now refugees but may be subject to Chinese attacks or surveillance?
5:30 p.m.
Consultant, Former Ambassador of Canada to the People's Republic of China, As an Individual
Yes, actually. Australia passed a law in an effort to eliminate the potential for interference. It has experienced interference in its political system.
One of the things it did was ban all foreign donations. It requires anyone working for foreign powers, including former ministers and high-ranking officials, as well as ambassadors, to report their activities.
Australia also tightened up the rules governing intimidation of Australians of Uighur or Tibetan descent or refugees. It prosecutes the individuals responsible for such acts of intimidation.
The message we have to send China is that there is zero tolerance for intimidation.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca
We will go to Ms. McPherson for the final question. Then the witnesses will each have an opportunity for a minute or so to conclude, if we've missed something.
5:30 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
As the representative for the New Democratic Party, I have the privilege of always being the last to address our witnesses. I wanted to give you all some time to summarize or follow up if there were some points that you weren't able to bring up earlier. I thought maybe what I would do is frame it a little bit.
Is there is something more that you think we should be doing, that the parliamentarians in Canada should be doing, that this committee should be doing more of? Is there something that we need to be doing more at the multilateral level? Finally, is there something that we need to be doing more to support those people within China, those internal forces that we can use to push back?
I'll open it up to all three of you to have your comments, if that's all right with you.
I really did love that line, Dr. Anderson, about “if you have a voice but don't say anything”. Maybe we could start with you.
5:30 p.m.
Senior Program Officer for Research and Advocacy, Uyghur Human Rights Project
I'm trying to gather my thoughts here. I wanted to jump in at several points, but I didn't really get the chance.
On multilateral action, my organization has been watching and has been happy to see a little bit of movement, a little bit of action in that regard. On June 26, more than 50 UN experts issued a statement denouncing China's human rights record, notably the treatment of Uighurs and Tibetans, as well as the deteriorating situation in Hong Kong.
On June 29, the Inter-Parliamentary Alliance on China, a group of parliamentarians from 15 countries, called for a resolution to be tabled at the UN specifically about the situation in the Uighur region. I would urge Canadian lawmakers to use your voices to be part of those kinds of statements that are actually happening. There is some multilateral movement and multilateral action.
I also mentioned some things in my very quick rundown of policy recommendations that I haven't had a chance to mention yet. There are things Canada can do to focus on refugee admissions for Uighurs who are stateless. There's a crisis of Uighur statelessness in the Uighur diaspora around the world. If Canada could offer safe haven to those refugees, that would be one really positive step that Canada could take. That would also send a signal to China. That would be a form of using the Canadian voice. Canada should deter and punish harassment of Uighur Canadians who are living inside and outside of its borders.
I know I've spoken for a while, so I will turn the floor over to one of my fellow panellists. Thank you.
5:35 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you very much.
Mr. Saint-Jacques, you're the next person on my screen.
5:35 p.m.
Consultant, Former Ambassador of Canada to the People's Republic of China, As an Individual
I know that it's difficult on the international scene, but again, as we've heard from Dr. Anderson, there's work that has been started. I was very pleased to see this Inter-Parliamentary Alliance on China. We have to multiply this type of alliance. It will require a lot of work, a lot of effort, but I think we have no other choice; otherwise, we will lose our values.
Domestically, there are a number of things that we could do to limit cases of interference. For instance, when someone from a Chinese consulate intervenes with a university to ask them to cancel a discussion on what's happening in Xinjiang or Hong Kong, or if there is harassment of Uighurs living in Canada as refugees or of Canadians of Uighur origin, we should look at our laws to see what can be done to prevent that.
I agree also that we have to show some flexibility to admit more refugees to Canada. Also I think we should look at the supply chain and at what can be done to make sure that products made with forced labour don't end up in Canada. I think there are a number of things we can look at to send a message that we won't tolerate such behaviour on the part of China.
Thank you.
5:35 p.m.
Director, Human Rights Initiative, Center for Strategic and International Studies
I'll be brief. I just want to second what Elise said about refugees.
One of the challenges for us is when we're looking for people to talk to. We have all these government documents that are the blueprints, but to me it was important to find humans who could tell us if those policies were actually being implemented. We did find some, but it's very hard to find Uighurs who will talk to you about their experiences, because they're so insecure. They don't have safety. They're refugees, and they don't have status where they are. I think that's a really vital element. I know that Canada in particular has a long history of accepting refugees, so I just want to second that recommendation.
Another thing that might be helpful would be if an international organization—and this would be hard to create—was to research what's happening in Xinjiang and issue an opinion from a legal perspective. It is my understanding that the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights in the past has done studies when it wasn't permitted access to a region. I don't think it's entirely impossible to accomplish that, although it would obviously take the right political will. That might be somewhere Canada could help.
I think I've already touched on the questions of export controls and sanctions, etc.
Last, in a very big-picture way, continuing really aggressive efforts to support anti-corruption work around the world would be important in the long run when, again, we talk about belt and road and so forth. That is seen as feeding corruption globally, and if you're able to counter the corruption involved, it might not be so attractive to some leaders.
I'll close there. Thank you so much for having me here today.
5:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca
Thank you.
Before we move in camera, as chair and on behalf of all of the members of committee, as well as the clerk, analysts, our interpreters, staff, technicians and everybody who has made the last two days happen, we can't thank our witnesses enough. You are tremendous experts and educators, advocates and academics. We've heard many personal stories here. Over these last two days, we have had thorough and compelling testimony that will help inform the work that we need to do.
We cannot thank you enough. On behalf of this subcommittee of foreign affairs, thank you so much.
The meeting is suspended.
[Proceedings continue in camera]