Evidence of meeting #5 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was china.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:15 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My question is for Ms. Alexeeva.
As we know, during the Holocaust, the Nazis wanted to exterminate the Jews. However, many other minorities ended up in concentration camps.
I’d like to draw some kind of parallel here. Do we know whether, in the current situation in Xinjiang, minorities other than Uighurs are in the camps of the Chinese authorities?
12:15 p.m.
Sinologist and Professor of Contemporary Chinese History, Université du Quebec à Montreal, As an Individual
In the camps in Xinjiang, there are even Kazakhs, Hui, and all the Muslim minorities living on Chinese territory.
It should be noted that before setting up these re-education centres in Xinjiang, the Chinese government tested them elsewhere, namely in Tibet. At the time, it created what was called re-education schools for Buddhist monks, a bit like summer camps for deviant populations. It sent Tibetan monks, political opponents, and people supporting on the Internet certain ideas that the Chinese government didn’t support.
These pilot projects were tested in 2014 and 2015. When the Chinese government found not that they were working well, but that they were achieving the desired results, it increased the scale of the projects and set up real internment and concentration camps on the Xinjiang territory. This also affects other minorities, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, who live on Chinese territory.
12:20 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you very much.
I have a question for Ms. Kanji.
Yesterday morning I was reading an open letter from the Chinese consul general about Hong Kong and the security law, which also affects Uighurs. This letter was published in the newspaper La Presse. It is disturbing, because I suspect that this kind of rhetoric is being used to change the western media discourse on China.
Ms. Kanji, have Chinese officials spoken in other western media? In your opinion, does this mean that the pressure on China is starting to increase?
12:20 p.m.
Legal Academic and Journalist, As an Individual
I'm sorry, but I'm not clear on the question. They've published articles in other western papers about what specifically?
12:20 p.m.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
The Chinese consul general here published a letter in a Canadian national newspaper praising the security law that applies to Hong Kong. This affects Uighurs as well.
Have you heard of other Chinese officials in the western world who are starting to speak out in the national media? Does that mean that China is starting to feel pressure, in your opinion?
12:20 p.m.
Legal Academic and Journalist, As an Individual
I'm not aware of that, but perhaps some of the other experts on this panel, including Professor Alexeeva, might be more familiar with it.
12:20 p.m.
Bloc
12:20 p.m.
Sinologist and Professor of Contemporary Chinese History, Université du Quebec à Montreal, As an Individual
It is true that, for some time now, we have been seeing an increase in interventions by Chinese officials, particularly from the diplomatic corps. The Chinese ambassador to Great Britain or France is also speaking out. His words are increasingly assertive. We do not take into account the reaction of the public, the people who hear them or the journalists who ask questions. There is a scenario and we go straight to the point.
This has been a feature of Chinese foreign policy since Xi Jinping came to power. China does not want to hear from others or no longer wishes to do so. Every time it is criticized, for example for its position on Xinjiang, Chinese officials say that nobody criticizes China, that even Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia and Turkey say nothing, even though in Turkey, the Uighur diaspora is particularly important. They say that even Muslim countries do not criticize China, so they don’t see how this would concern western countries.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
Thank you very much to all of the witnesses. It's always good to see University of Ottawa professors on the panel.
I do have a question first of all for you, Ms. Kanji. You mentioned in your testimony the use of disease, in particular, coronavirus, in the internment camps, if I understood you correctly. It was mentioned very briefly, but I'd like you to elaborate on it. Is this something that is happening in a deliberate way? Could you perhaps elaborate on that?
12:20 p.m.
Legal Academic and Journalist, As an Individual
Again, because of the extreme secrecy and lack of access imposed on the region, it's difficult to know for sure. However, there are reports from Uighurs and advocates expressing great concern about the fact that even as China was closing many public institutions in order to prevent the spread of the coronavirus, the concentration camps were not being closed. People were still being sent to labour camps, where they were obviously at great risk of exposure to coronavirus.
That indicates, at the very least, a great lack of concern for the protection of Uighur life. At worst, it cynically indicates a use of the coronavirus pandemic in order to effect pre-existing goals of eradication.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
Thank you. That's very alarming, in fact.
Dr. Mendes, you mentioned that we need a long-term strategy working with traditional allies, and maybe even an expanded Five Eyes. What exactly would a long-term strategy on China entail, and how would that involve multilateral partners?
12:25 p.m.
Professor of Law and President, International Commission of Jurists Canada
When you look at the ways in which you can get the seemingly second-most powerful superpower in the world now to act, you have to look at what it cares most about. What China cares most about right now is its economic growth. A lot of the Communist Party promise to its people is basically that as long as we promise you economic growth, you will basically abide by our being in power, and we can do whatever we want. That's the compact the Communist Party of China has made.
Well, that also depends on the rest of the world agreeing to work with China on that economic growth, be it in the World Trade Organization, be it in terms of investments or be it in terms of business relationships, etc. That's where I think it is critical to have not just the multilateral approach, if you like, but also a private sector approach, to have some type of way in which you can work with other countries in their private sector areas to find out how one can co-operate to prevent forced labour, to prevent child labour and to prevent the type of situation in which they may become complicit in human rights abuses—for example, providing surveillance technologies—and to further the human rights violations in those countries. I think over time that will be a much more persuasive impact on China than even making statements, etc.
I think it requires the democratic countries to work together. I think it does require political leadership. That's why I was very encouraged when former Vice-President Biden said that one of his first objectives would be to organize a democratic summit to deal with these sort of issues. We should right now be saying to the potential next president of the United States, “We're with you. We're going to work with you. We're going to help work with other democratic countries to see how we can put this in place at the political level, at the governmental level and at the private sector level, and to see how we can work together.”
Hopefully, we have champions like Bill Browder, who has the credibility to promote that in the United States, as I'm sure he would do if he were asked.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
Mr. Browder, in just a very short time, did you want to comment on that as well?
12:25 p.m.
Head, Global Magnitsky Justice Campaign
I think there's such outrage right now across the world about this whole story. I'm speaking to you from the U.K., where there is similar outrage right now in the British Parliament about the Uighur situation. I've been testifying in the Australian Parliament about the Magnitsky Act, and there's similar outrage about the Uighur situation. There seems to be a big appetite to do all this stuff—
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Thank you all for being here.
My question is for Ms. Alexeeva, who is a professor at Université du Quebec à Montreal.
You say that other minorities in Xinjiang province are also being targeted by government programs.
Are they only targeted because they are within the region, and are we only speaking about them because they're a direct corollary of what's happening to the Uighur people?
12:25 p.m.
Sinologist and Professor of Contemporary Chinese History, Université du Quebec à Montreal, As an Individual
The Uighurs are actually the largest ethnic group in Xinjiang. Members of other ethnic groups, including the Kazakhs, the Kyrgyz and the Hui, are fewer in number and represent no more than 1% or 2% of Xinjiang's minority population. That is why we hear about them a little less. However, these issues have been addressed by Kazakh and Kyrgyz activists in Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan.
The problem is that the governments of these central Asian countries cannot stand up to China. In fact, they cannot openly criticize China because they are very dependent on economic relations with the People's Republic of China. Therefore, we hear much less about them, and that is unfortunate. Since the Uighurs have suffered more and are greater in number, we hear more about them. It is important to add that the Uighurs are not the only ones affected; all Muslim minorities in Xinjiang are.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
You're saying, then, that we're focusing on the Uighur people rightfully so, because there is a genocide, as many witnesses who have come forth have said, but that we are not necessarily focusing on these much smaller groups, despite the fact that it's the same program.
Is that correct?
12:30 p.m.
Sinologist and Professor of Contemporary Chinese History, Université du Quebec à Montreal, As an Individual
Exactly, but the same can be said of the minorities in Tibet. Some southwestern minorities have also been sent to re-education schools.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Sameer Zuberi Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Yes, but Tibet is a different case.
What I'm trying to get at is that Tibet is another focus; it's a separate program. While the individual who enacted the program within Tibet was pulled into the province of Xinjiang, from what I understand, to implement and reproduce the same program within that province, the program within the province of Xinjiang is primarily focused on the Uighur people, but these other minorities are, through a ricochet, being pulled into it. That's what I'm trying to get to.
Is that correct?
12:30 p.m.
Sinologist and Professor of Contemporary Chinese History, Université du Quebec à Montreal, As an Individual
Yes and no. The person who set up the camps, Chen Quanguo, would be the target of any sanctions. He used to lead the Communist Party in Tibet. He brought his Tibetan experience to Xinjiang. The Uighurs are not the only ones living in Xinjiang. The Hui, the Kyrgyz and the Kazakhs live there too. Since the goal is to fight Muslim extremism, the ethnic issue is less important to the Chinese than the religion issue, in the end. People end up in camps because of their religion. It is also due to their ethnic origin, but that aspect is secondary. The religion issue is paramount to the Chinese authorities.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
12:30 p.m.
Sinologist and Professor of Contemporary Chinese History, Université du Quebec à Montreal, As an Individual
Yes.
