International Trade Committee on Nov. 26th, 2009

[Alex Neve]

That possibility is very real. As a result, many human rights defenders are refusing that protection because they feel relying on the protection will increase the dangers they face.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

That is shocking testimony. Thank you for bringing it forward.

I want to continue with the many studies.

In talking about torture in Colombia, the Colombian Commission of Jurists--and this just came out a couple of weeks ago, but Isabelle Heyer, a member of this jurist commission said:

Sexual violence against women and girls is one of the most pervasive modes of torture...an habitual, systematic and invisible practice, which enjoys impunity in the majority of cases and whose principal perpetrators are soldiers and police.

Would you agree that soldiers and police are part of the Colombian government, that they are essentially subject to governance by the Colombian government?

[Alex Neve]

Absolutely.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

So when we see torture being practised in Colombia, whether it's the military arm of the government or the government itself, one can say that as part of the current government there is torture taking place by arms of that government.

[Alex Neve]

Clearly, I think we have been consistent in saying there are three players in the human rights crisis in Colombia right now. Certainly the FARC, the guerrillas, are responsible for abuses, the paramilitary and the recycled paramilitary groups with their links to the military are responsible, but government forces themselves are directly responsible as well.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Now, I want to come back to the issue of investment that you raised in your presentation and just read from CENSAT. They are saying “Human rights violations are linked to efforts by those behind Colombia’s murderous paramilitaries to create conditions for investment from which they are positioned to benefit.” In other words, investments coming in, potentially foreign investment, can actually serve to exacerbate the human rights violations taking place in Colombia.

Would you agree with that statement?

[Alex Neve]

I would agree with it, and I think some of the specific individual cases I highlighted--recent urgent actions that Amnesty has issued--highlight the direct connection between paramilitary threats and violence and economic interests, their determination to speak out against individuals who are raising any concerns about investment, the clear patterns of wanting to clear lands and make areas open for investment when there is significant economic welfare as well.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

So given those ties between investment and human rights, would you not say it would be pretty irresponsible for this committee if ever Parliament said, “You must study this bill further”, to not push immediately for an independent and partial and complete human rights assessment of what the impacts are in the agreement? There's no credibility on one side and pages and pages of documentation on the other. If there is any disagreement around how to proceed, should we not stop cold and do the independent, impartial human rights assessment?

[Alex Neve]

Our position has always been clear. The human rights impact assessment must happen before the deal goes any further, and it's not that this is not something wishful and aspirational. In our view, it's an essential part of the due diligence of Canada before we enter into such an agreement.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you.

Mr. Keddy.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome, Mr. Neve, back to our committee. You were here before, and I expect when Colombia comes to committee you will be back again. I would expect it will get to the committee hopefully fairly soon.

You raise a number of good points, a number of troubling points, and a number of points that I'd like to drill down just a little deeper into, if I could.

First of all, you brought up the massacre of Awá by the FARC, and I'd just like to read it into the record that you brought that up. I appreciate it, because certainly one of our members brought that to committee, saying that the massacre was by the government. So it's nice to have that corrected.

On the paramilitary and human rights offenders, in particular the Black Eagles--and I'd like your opinion on this. I realize it's almost impossible to put a percentage on something, but on the remobilization of the paramilitaries in the criminal gangs, how big of a problem is that?

[Alex Neve]

Absolutely, it's not possible to put a number on it, but it is a very big problem.

The numbers and the instances, for instance, of death threats and attacks Amnesty has been documenting against trade unionists and lawyers and indigenous activists over the last year have been increasing. Our expert researchers are of the view that over the last year, in particular, the number of new and remobilized paramilitary groups has been...they have been strengthening and consolidating their activities. So it's not just a fleeting concern; it's something that is intensifying, in our view.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Taking your experience around the globe, that's not an unusual thing in war-torn areas or areas that have been suffering from civil war, areas that have been under armed conflict for periods of time. When suddenly you get a bunch of disenfranchised paramilitaries or soldiers, they still have access to arms and training and they will typically move to criminal activities. Would you agree with that?

[Alex Neve]

I think that's the more usual concern. Are demobilized and disenfranchised former fighters on both sides of a conflict moving into generalized criminality? You see murders and robbery and those sorts of things increase. What we're seeing here, though, is something beyond that. We're seeing paramilitary groups being reformed and starting to engage in some of the same targeted attacks against specific sectors of the society for reasons that are political, economic, strategic, and are not just a matter of generalized criminality.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

I look at it as criminal activity, certainly.

[Alex Neve]

It's certainly criminal; it's just not only criminal.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

I guess my point here is that if there are no jobs, if there is no opportunity, if we want to isolate Colombia and not trade with them.... Frankly, I'm disturbed by the idea that suddenly we're beginning trade...we're already trading with Colombia. Countries all around the world are trading with Colombia. The only way they're going to dig themselves out of the morass they're in is to provide jobs and opportunities for their citizens. You can't do that by isolating them.

I'm not finished. They do need security, I agree 100%, but how do they find that security, and how do we move them in that direction? Everything we've seen has told us that the situation in Colombia over time has improved. Now, it has ups and downs, but it has improved. The security of the average Colombian is better than it was ten years ago. The security of trade unionists is better than it was ten years ago. Colombia is a violent society, and I think the government is struggling mightily to overcome that, with work to do. I agree 100%.

I know we have limited time, so my final question to you is about the new law on intelligence and counter-intelligence that the Colombian congress passed last summer. Margaret Sekaggya, as a UN envoy, welcomed this. She stated on the record that she believes this is a good thing. You appear to be a bit negative toward that in your comments. I want to read into the record that the UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights noted on June 16 that this new law, with its emphasis on the guarantee of rights and the enforcement of strict compliance to political and legal controls, constitutes an adequate legal framework to prevent similar situations of illegal wire-tapping, that you referenced earlier.

The office also suggested an immediate implementation of this law and other changes required within the administrative department of security, or DAS. The office also highlights the diligent manner in which the Attorney General's office and the Inspector General's office are carrying out investigations of these allegations. My point is this: it looks as if, according to not just your testimony but other people's testimony, there was a serious problem there.

The government reacted to that problem. They changed the law. I'm not saying it's perfect. And another body—not just yours—has looked at this and said they believe they're headed in the right direction.

I don't think Colombia's perfect, don't get me wrong. But I think they're headed in the right direction.

Are you seeing at least a gradual improvement over time? I know there are challenges, but is there a basic improvement, freedom of movement, freedom of association, for the average person on the street in Colombia?

[Alex Neve]

There's so much in your comments. There are a couple of things I want to clarify.

The first is that I want to make it absolutely clear that we've never said not to trade with Colombia. We've never said isolate Colombia.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

I appreciate that.

[Alex Neve]

We have always said, whether it is in the context of the ongoing trade relationship or any proposed change of that trading relationship, get clear about the human rights impact and make sure those are fully understood and addressed before we deepen that trading relationship. That's all we're looking for here.

With respect to what has happened over the course of this year with respect to the awful scandal regarding the eavesdropping and surveillance that the DAS bodyguards were carrying out with respect to human rights defenders, it's true, the government is responding and responding quickly. And we don't disagree with Margaret Sekaggya's comments, and others, that this hopefully means that we are moving in the right direction. It remains shocking and unacceptable that the civilian intelligence agency that reports to the president in Colombia has, for the last eight years, been carrying out that activity. It's one more indication of the fact that there is often a lot of smoke and mirrors going on with respect to what we're told as reality in Colombia and what is really happening behind the scenes with respect to human rights.

Lastly, about security being better or not, I think in large part that depends on where you stand in Colombia. I think it's clear in the cities for many urban dwellers that security has improved, although there's even debate back and forth about that. Take it outside the cities, and I think that's where the real concerns lie. That's where a lot of the impact of deeper trade and investment would be felt.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you.

Mr. Silva, we have to keep it pretty tight this time.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to thank Alex Neve for being here and Amnesty for their work.

I want to state for the record that part of the reason you are here today is that I spoke with the chair about inviting Amnesty. I thought it was important to hear from you. I think Amnesty has always provided important information for our committees.

I must say that I have some concerns about this deal. I also have concerns about human rights. I know there are those who like to frame this as a contest between those who care about human rights and those who don't. I don't think that's fair, because I think every one of us cares about human rights.

It's a question of how we deal with issues of human rights and how we proceed with the deal before us. I must congratulate your secretary general, Irene Khan, for making poverty the greatest human rights violation. I think poverty is such an important issue. It is within the context of poverty that I look to see whether trade deals will improve people's lives or not.

You have stated that you're not asking us not to trade with Colombia. This trade deal covers only about 20% of the things we don't trade. About 80% of things we already trade with Colombia would have happened whether we had this agreement or not. Your concern is whether, in light of what is happening on the ground, we want to go further into a trading relationship with Colombia.

I have made statements in the past, and I want to make sure that my statements are clear. What I have said is based on my relationship with people in Colombia—I've gone there three times—and with the large Colombian community in my riding. I have said the situation has improved under Uribe's government. I should have said that the situation has improved within the cities, because the people I have spoken to have been mainly from the Bogotá region. In that context, I would say that they have told me that the situation has improved.

I take seriously the comments you have made about other areas that I'm not as familiar with. I think it's important for all of us to get a better handle on it. I agree that it would be a good idea to get an assessment of the human rights situation. But how would we get an independent human rights assessment, given that most people have already adopted a position on the deal? This is a challenge. It's a good suggestion, but how would you do it? If you bring labour, they've already taken a position. The government has already taken a position. How would you bring it together?

[Alex Neve]

Those parties are not the ones who conduct the impact assessment. They're the ones who provide input into it. The impact assessment itself would be overseen and conducted by independent experts. An academic setting is one place to look. Trade unions, industry associations, Colombian government representatives, and others would provide input into the assessment. The information would then be analyzed, gathered, and put together, after which conclusions and recommendations would be formulated by the independent experts.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

That is extremely helpful. You are referring to an independent group of expert academics.

[Alex Neve]

The academy is one place to look. There may well be others who would have the independence and expertise that all concerned would find acceptable.