Evidence of meeting #37 for International Trade in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was vehicles.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jim Stanford  Economist, Unifor
John Masswohl  Director, Government and International Relations, Canadian Cattlemen's Association
Jean-Guy Vincent  Chair, Canadian Pork Council
Martin Rice  Executive Director, Canadian Pork Council
Derek Butler  Executive Director, Association of Seafood Producers

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

Fair enough. I want to stop you, because I have very limited time.

I'd like to ask two quick questions if I can. First of all—and I'd like a quick answer to this—Mr. Stanford, you said that North American vehicles are not piercing the South Korean market, but you've also said North American products are designed for North American tastes. I'm unclear if the reason we're not selling vehicles into Korea is that we are not making any products that the Korean consumer wants or if it's because we are actually making products that they want and really trying to sell them there and we're just not able to.

It sounds as though it's the former and not the latter.

4:15 p.m.

Economist, Unifor

Jim Stanford

There is a bit of a “chicken and egg” thing. In order to develop a significant export network, you have to invest heavily in marketing and distribution and infrastructure, and it's hard to do that if you have no confidence that you're going to be selling anything.

Korea is one place where the vehicles they drive are actually very similar to the vehicles we drive. They're mid-sized sedans and compact utility vehicles. I don't think it's that our products are fundamentally wrong. I think it is widely recognized in the industry that the Korean strategy of state-led development and non-tariff protection have been very important in explaining why that market remains uniquely closed by international standards.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

This is my last question, and I want to give you a chance to answer this. In 2013 over $17 billion in auto investments were made globally by the private sector. Canada failed to attract a single nickel of that money. In your view, what policies are needed to attract auto investment in Canada? I know you have identified one already, which is to link tariff reduction with investment in Canada. Are there any other policies that you would suggest the federal government should adopt in this regard?

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Randy Hoback

You have about 10 seconds.

4:20 p.m.

Economist, Unifor

Jim Stanford

First of all it's totally wrong that we didn't attract a single nickel. It's been tough sledding to get more investment commitments in Canada, but we have won some important ones. The good news from Ford Oakville is one of them.

In terms of what is required we developed in 2012—

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC

I mean in 2013.

4:20 p.m.

Economist, Unifor

Jim Stanford

No, we had investments in 2013 as well.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Randy Hoback

I'm going to have to cut you off there. Sorry, Mr. Stanford.

I have to go to Mr. Richards.

October 2nd, 2014 / 4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Wild Rose, AB

Mr. Masswohl, I have some questions for you. As you know, I am from Alberta where many of your members are from and where we produce what we think is the finest beef in the world, Alberta beef. I want to ask you some questions about the potential benefits for your producers.

I want to start by just backing up to the very heart of the matter. Obviously you are here representing your members, and obviously that means they must be supportive of the agreement, because that is certainly the message you are bringing to us today. Can you tell us if that is a pretty widely held or nearly unanimous view? I suspect it probably is, but I just want to verify that with you. Amongst your membership, is it quite widely supported or unanimously supported? Is there some conflict over whether or not this is a good agreement for Canada?

4:20 p.m.

Director, Government and International Relations, Canadian Cattlemen's Association

John Masswohl

Yes, I would say there's very strong support for it. Cattle producers know that we derive the most value for our cattle when the companies that turn those cattle into meat and products are able to market each of those pieces of the animal to the country, the buyer, that's willing to pay the most for it. Sometimes that market is in Korea. I'll give you an example. Some of the products that have been very important in the Korean market have been leg bones. They use them as soup bones. We don't get a whole lot of value for those here in North America, but if you can get two or three times the value per pound in the Korean market, that's very important. In Korean barbecue they use a lot of cattle stomachs. That's not something Canadians eat a lot of, so we get many multiples of the value by being able to export products like that.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Wild Rose, AB

Great, thank you.

That was actually one of the questions I had for you, because I was somewhat aware that was the case. We had heard Mr. Stanford talk earlier about consumer taste in terms of vehicles. It occurred to me that there is an opportunity for your producers to utilize more of the beef and more of your products that perhaps there is no market for here in North America. That's certainly something that we recognize is important, and I know that you do as well.

Have you done any analysis or has your organization done any, or are you aware of any analysis, that would give us some sense as to this agreement and what you think the potential economic benefits are for your members, for your industry, five to ten years into the future? How much extra income could we expect to see Canadian beef producers realize when this agreement's fully implemented?

4:20 p.m.

Director, Government and International Relations, Canadian Cattlemen's Association

John Masswohl

You know what? We look at the future and we know that right now cattle prices are extremely high. We've certainly had a lot of bad years and we think it's our turn to be making some money. What that says to the average cattle producers is that if they're getting a high return, they want to start to produce more. We fully believe that over the next few years, cattle production in Canada is going to be in the expansion phase. Unless we have commensurate expansion of markets, additional demand for our products in places to send that additional beef that we're going to be producing, we'll go down the cycle and cattle prices will turn down again.

We see this Korea free trade agreement in the context of the overall Canadian global economic strategy, global commerce strategy, which is getting the CETA implemented with Europe. We also have some other smaller agreements around the world. We know the TPP's being negotiated. We see huge potential in China in the future. We look at all these markets and the types of products that they take. We know that we're going to do very well on what we call the middle meats—that's basically your rib-eyes, your loins—in Europe. But every time you produce an animal and you get 100 kilos of the high-end steaks, you also get the organ meats, you get the bones for those other things. So, even though the Korean market may be $50 million, and I know that's not a lot to the auto sector, it's a lot to us. It's really important in adding that value to each animal to farmers.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Wild Rose, AB

Is our system set up to be able to immediately take advantage of this? You were talking about cuts of beef that are not currently being used in our market here. Are we set up to be able to immediately take some benefit from this in that regard, being able to utilize more of each animal?

4:25 p.m.

Director, Government and International Relations, Canadian Cattlemen's Association

John Masswohl

Well for Korea we are, definitely. In Europe, we have some technical work to do in terms of equivalency of our meat inspection standards. It brings us into some other issues. In Alberta there are challenges having enough labour, so we need a good labour strategy. A lot of the packing plants in Alberta are short hundreds of positions. There are hundreds of jobs, union jobs, that are just not able to be staffed in those rural areas.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Randy Hoback

Step in there.

4:25 p.m.

Director, Government and International Relations, Canadian Cattlemen's Association

John Masswohl

When those jobs are not available, it's the value-added product that suffers.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Randy Hoback

Thank you, Mr. Masswohl.

Thank you, Mr. Stanford, for taking the time out of your day to appear in front of us.

Colleagues, I'm going to suspend for five minutes, just as we take our witnesses and bring our new witnesses forward. Not even five minutes, three minutes if you could, and then we'll be back at it again here.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Randy Hoback

We'll get started here again, folks.

We have two more witnesses in front of us. We have Jean-Guy Vincent, with the Canadian Pork Council, along with Martin Rice. We also have the Association of Seafood Producers on video conference. Mr. Derek Butler is the executive director. All three of you, thank you very much for appearing here today on such short notice. Each group has ten minutes.

I'll start off with the Canadian Pork Council.

You have ten minutes.

4:30 p.m.

Jean-Guy Vincent Chair, Canadian Pork Council

Thank you. I will talk in French.

Mr. Chair, I want to begin by congratulating you on being elected to preside over this committee.

My name is Jean-Guy Vincent. I am a hog producer from Sainte-Séraphine, Quebec, and Chair of the Canadian Pork Council's Board of Directors. I am joined by Martin Rice, the Canadian Pork Council's Executive Director.

We prepared for this meeting at the last minute, and I apologize for that. We have no French version of this presentation. I have the English text, and I will have to translate into French as I go.

I want to thank the members of the committee for the opportunity to discuss Bill C-41, An Act to implement the Free Trade Agreement between Canada and the Republic of Korea. We hope the House of Commons will pass this bill.

The Canadian Pork Council serves as the national voice for hog producers in Canada. We are a federation of nine provincial pork industry associations, and our purpose is to play a leadership role in achieving and maintaining a dynamic and prosperous Canadian pork sector.

We are pleased that this free trade agreement is nearing the end of its long journey and is close to implementation. We are confident that Canada obtained the best available result for our sector, equivalent to those the United States and the European Union obtained in their free trade negotiations with South Korea.

These negotiations began in 2004, and we recognize that there have been problems in the negotiations with South Korea. We were somewhat disappointed when negotiations appeared to stall in 2007, but we see that the discussions between Canada and Korea, conducted under difficult conditions, have finally had a successful outcome for our sector.

4:35 p.m.

Martin Rice Executive Director, Canadian Pork Council

Thank you. I'll cover the next little section here.

Our worries over the lack of a free trade agreement with Korea became very acute in 2011 when virtually all of our competitors in that market started benefiting from their own countries' FTAs with South Korea. In the food business, a business of very small margins of profit, when facing tariffs of well over 20%, Canadian exporters have quickly found themselves unable to compete in that market as others acquire huge tariff advantages as has happened with the United States, the European Union, and Chile. Under their agreements for frozen pork, after the three years in which they have had tariff cuts, they now have a 15% tariff advantage on frozen pork, which is much greater than the typical profit margin on that cut of meat.

To illustrate the impact of Canada not having a free trade agreement with South Korea while its main competitors do, our exports to the end of August of this year are down by over 17% compared with those of last year while total Korean pork imports during the first eight months of this year show 13% growth. Our sales to a growing and affluent market, South Korea, are actually declining.

I would like to refer you to charts that were distributed to you showing Canadian pork and pork product exports to South Korea in 2011 and in 2013. The size of the circles on each page represents the relative magnitude of exports. I would make just two points based on these charts. Just in those two years from 2011 to 2013, we saw our exports decline by two-thirds, or $157 million. Secondly, I'd point out that there are circles right across the country. We have pork exports from every region of Canada going to South Korea.

We are a sector that relies on exports. In fact more than two-thirds of the hogs produced in Canada are exported either as live hogs or as pork products. Exports help the Canadian hog and pork industry to grow. Furthermore, the robust global demand for Canadian pork has resulted in increased value and volumes going to a broader base of customer countries. This has increased the market leverage and opportunities of the Canadian pork industry and has provided the opportunity to generate added value to the whole carcass.

However, we also need this trade agreement to re-establish conditions of competitive access to one of the world's most important pork import markets. Not long ago, Canada was South Korea's most important pork supplier. The gradual loss of this market in recent years has seriously affected Canadian pork exporters' ability to achieve the best returns available for the range of products derived from our pigs. This cannot easily, if at all, be made up from other markets.

In addition, world meat markets are subject to huge swings from one year to the next in conditions of competition and access. I would ask you to just look at this other chart that we distributed, which in addition to showing how steep the decline in our exports to South Korea has been illustrates the sharp year-to-year changes that occur in major markets like Russia and China and even the United States. A highly export-dependent industry like Canada's pork sector requires the best access to as many important international markets as possible; thus, the critical need for the rapid implementation of this agreement.

Market access will not fall into our laps. In addition to Canada passing this agreement with South Korea as soon as possible, we would need to work with Korea to ensure they quickly obtain the authority to implement the deal.

With the confidence being provided by speedy implementation of the agreement, the Canadian pork export community can work to fully restore our business relationships with the Korean meat industry. On this point, we would like to acknowledge the ongoing Canadian government efforts to promote Canadian agriculture in Korea. It was the pleasure of Jean-Guy, our chair, to have participated in one of those missions about a year ago, which was led by Agriculture and Agri-Food Minister Ritz.

Jean-Guy.

4:40 p.m.

Chair, Canadian Pork Council

Jean-Guy Vincent

Our industry has faced serious challenges in terms of our ability to compete in the world market in the recent past, including a strong Canadian dollar, historically high grain prices, and a world economic slowdown. However, we have managed to come through all of that with a smaller but highly competitive hog sector, and we must not lose sight of the Canadian hog industry's long-term interest. The world economy will continue to evolve, and we cannot afford to overlook or suspend any efforts that can improve our market access.

I would like to add that the industry has turned a corner over the past 12 months due to the lower feed costs and an increased hog price due to a virus affecting production in the U.S. principally. These two conditions have allowed producers to establish a margin and stabilized the producers and the production base in our industry.

We appreciate the government's determination to follow through and complete the deal with Korea. The deal is good for the hog sector and it is in the best interests for Canada and Korea to sign.

Pork is a key component of the Canadian agrifood sector and provincial economies. Canada's pork industry is made up of 7,300 hog farms with cash receipts of $4 billion. Hog producers account for 8% of the total farm cash receipts and are the fifth largest source of farm income in Canada.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Randy Hoback

I will have to get you to wrap up.

4:40 p.m.

Chair, Canadian Pork Council

Jean-Guy Vincent

Okay.

The economic development associated with hog production and exporting pork contributes $9 billion to the Canadian economy. Canada is a globally competitive and successful producer and exporter of pork and high-quality pork products.

I thank you for the time you have allowed us.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Randy Hoback

Thank you very much.

Mr. Butler, I will turn the floor over to you.

4:40 p.m.

Derek Butler Executive Director, Association of Seafood Producers

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you and good afternoon. Let me begin by thanking the committee for this very kind invitation to appear and provide testimony related to the Canada-South Korea free trade agreement.

As you all know, seafood is a trading business and it's only appropriate that my two committee appearances to date before Parliament have been before this committee, the trade committee, the first time for the comprehensive economic trade agreement with Europe, and now for the deal between Canada and South Korea.

Since the first explorers ventured to our shores and in the mid-1500s cod provided 60% of all fish consumed in Europe, we have been a trading business. Some have said we were the stock market, indeed, of Europe, and still today, over 80% of our production is exported. I'm amused by those who think that we can find more markets at home to help alleviate the challenges in either international markets or currency volatility. Even if every Newfoundlander and Labradorian doubled their seafood consumption, it would still only represent a fraction—I think 2% or less—of everything we produce and sell.

I'd encourage them to do that, as I would committee members and all Canadians, for their health, but the volumes we sell mean we require access to international markets. It has ever been and ever will be thus.

On behalf of the Association of Seafood Producers, the trade association representing by value and volume the majority of seafood production in Newfoundland and Labrador, between 20% and 25% of all Canadian production, out of proportion to our population, I'm pleased to say we support this agreement.

South Korea is a growing and dynamic economy. The country is in fact a case study for economic development, having grown to be the world's 15th largest economy and the fourth largest in Asia. It's a region of increasing interest to Newfoundland and Labrador seafood producers.

This agreement is another good-news story for the industry. One of the major challenges and impediments to market penetration abroad for Canadian seafood exports has been high tariff walls. Our competitors in South Korea—the United States and the European Union—have typically enjoyed an advantageous position in comparison to us, as my colleagues have just outlined vis-à-vis pork.

This new trade deal and the deal announced with Europe represent new opportunities for my industry, game changers, really. Europe and Asia both have some of the highest seafood consumption rates in the world. These are the very two market regions that we need access to, that we need to grow in. The South Korean market at this stage, I should note, is not a large one for us, but it is a growing one. It has great potential for us. Newfoundland and Labrador seafood exports to South Korea in the period from 2010 to 2012 were around $12 million, the most recent figures available. But with tariffs that went as high as 47% now all going to zero throughout the implementation of the deal, those figures can grow.

It's not even a matter of how big the market is but how big it can be that's important, what might be the potential in a new dispensation. To that we can add that very small movements in trade into the South Korean market, in this case, can have larger impacts on our product going into other markets. Even if our exports never increase in great volume, small changes can have impacts on pricing in returns in other markets to our benefit.

I'd also be remiss if I didn't remind those who oppose free trade and call for fair trade about what free trade really is. I think free trade is fair trade. Tariffs are used to either tax an import product unfairly, as has been the case for us, or to protect local industry behind tariff walls that we can't get over. We said that for years with the prejudicial tariffs we faced in the cold-water shrimp industry in all of Atlantic Canada, shrimp entering the EU supported by interests in Europe that sought to keep our product uncompetitive through very high tariffs. Consumers and local industry in those countries suffer from those tariffs as we do in the inverse. Consumers end up spending more than they have to and local industry never learns to adapt, never learns to grow, never learns to compete. As a trading industry, as an export industry, we support free trade, and we laud this initiative and we laud similar ones.

In closing, let me say this, as I said when I appeared before the committee in late October of 2011. “I'd be remiss in my duties if I didn't take this opportunity to say that the Canadian seafood industry...[is] premised on a broken and failing model. There are constraints on strong resource management because of the socio-economic pressures brought to bear. There's a heavy reliance on EI”--without which the industry would not survive—“and this model cannot attract the capital required to modernize our fleets“ or the plants or to catch the product in the best seasons of the year.

With increasing labour challenges, we must also now modernize our plants. We need the capital, and a model with capital incentives to do that, and we're not there. I'm confident that a better industry model could contribute more to GDP and could make us a larger contributor to Canada's wealth through more valuable exports, through better incomes for harvesters and for plants, and through more stability and less chaos.

We can and should reduce tariffs and we can and should build new markets, but we should also fix things at home. If not, we'll be asking the last fish to pay the next bill. We've been there before.

We must answer a key question in facing this challenge, as somebody said recently. What business are we in, narrowly defined: fishing or seafood? Our competitors, as I saw last week on a trip to Iceland, are answering that question with emphasis on the latter: the seafood business, with access to the whole value chain.

I thank you for your time. I'm available for any questions you might have. If I can't provide specific answers, I'll certainly undertake to get them for you.

Thank you.