Justice Committee on May 16th, 2006

[Michel Bouchard]

Perhaps we can provide you with a more detailed response to your question, but I wasn't informed of any reduction. I don't believe funding has been cut. If you give me a moment, I'll verify the facts.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Fine then.

[Michel Bouchard]

If you have no objections, we'll check into the situation so that we can answer your question fully before the end of the meeting.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

All right.

May I ask another question?

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Madam, that's enough. Your time is up. I'm sorry.

I would like to go to Mrs. Smith from the Conservative Party.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you.

I would like to thank the justice minister for this very insightful presentation today. I've heard from my constituency, and from people all across Canada in different places where I've been, how people now have an environment of hope that the streets will be safe.

I do have a question, but as background, I would like to say that I am the mother of a police officer in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. I was the justice critic for the province of Manitoba.

I would like to ask a question centred around the stats that we have discussed today. The minister has very rightfully brought up the fact that handgun homicides have increased by 25% and sexual assault by 158%. On the street, when the Youth Criminal Justice Act was brought in, it was touted as being soft on crime for youth. A lot of things happened following that. I know, from the perspective of working with police and being on the ground, that many of the stats are not available because young offenders are never charged. Whether they have handguns or whether they have anything else, often those crimes are not reflected in the stats simply because they're not incarcerated and they're not charged. So I think, looking at the stats from that point of view, and having talked to many police officers who have worked with these people, there are many things missing from Canadian stats.

Clearly, people do not feel safe, and since the announcements about being tough on crime, people have started to have renewed faith in the Canadian justice system. I give you credit for that, and I give members around this table who have worked on these initiatives credit for that, because in a democratic society, Canadians should have the privilege of being safe on their streets. We're talking about neighbourhoods that are traditionally safe.

Having said that, when we talk about incarceration and the fact that we have to be balanced, people out there are feeling that the justice system in the past has not been balanced because there have been no consequences for crimes perpetrated against them.

Another statistic that we don't have is the cost of crime. What does it cost when cars are smashed at random? What does it cost when people's homes are broken into? What does it cost to a family when someone has been sexually assaulted? The cost is so great that it will not be reflected in those kinds of stats, because there are so many other variables.

I would expect, Mr. Minister, that indeed we will have an increase in incarcerations. One point you made was that you have to deal with the crime first, get it cleaned up off the streets, and then put programs in that support and enhance youth so that they can be redirected. Often young people--and I've talked to many of them--have been forced into crime through having a family that is not supportive at home or through peer pressure. Swarming incidents are increasing in our schoolyards.

Could you please comment on the fact that incarceration is really not reflected in the stats to date because there are many people who have not been charged even though they've committed crimes?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Certainly we saw exactly that with the coming in of the Youth Criminal Justice Act. Many police officers no longer bother even taking reports or filing charges. So it wouldn't surprise me that in many respects crime stats are going down, but the incidence of crime continues to climb.

On one very recent example out of Vancouver, the new Mayor of Vancouver has just re-announced--I heard this about two months ago--that they are now actually going to send out police officers to investigate break and enters. If you were broken into before, you just phoned it in and that was the end of the investigation. Now these stats that were previously kept out will continue to be reflected. Because no one was following up, there were no official stats.

Just speaking on a common-sense basis, people know that the condition of our streets in terms of crime is nowhere near what it was 20 years ago. You're in northeast Winnipeg, an area where I grew up, and I know that changes have occurred there. There are robberies, break and enters, and auto thefts, where those were unheard of 25 or 30 years ago.

I note your hard work with community organizations in that respect and your support of the police. Your son is not only an RCMP officer who just joined the RCMP, but he was a Brandon city police officer for many years. With his very close connection to the aboriginal community in Manitoba, he has a very strong and good insight into what is actually happening on our streets and in our aboriginal communities, which are so plagued by rising crime rates.

We are concerned about support for crime prevention. My department, together with the Department of Health, is managing the drug treatment court funding program. Under this program we are providing contribution to six drug treatment courts: Toronto, Ottawa, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Regina, and Vancouver. There are other justice funding programs that will continue--the youth justice renewal fund. The justice partnership and innovation program is always willing to consider proposals that aim to prevent and reduce crime. We work in close collaboration in the Department of Justice with other departments, such as public safety, and there are strong programs on crime prevention.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Mr. Bagnell.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to ask my questions on the Human Rights Commission. While you're looking for that, I just want to make an opening comment.

I'm glad you talked about prevention, because it's obvious in recent years that tremendous efforts on crime prevention have worked. There's no reputable statistician that wouldn't say that in recent years--and I don't care what happened a generation ago, because I want to know what's happening now--the majority of crimes have been going down. So I'm glad you're focusing on that, because in the past--the press just needs to look at our early Afghanistan debates--there were Conservative members who just boo-hooed root causes and said they had no effect and shouldn't be dealt with.

You mentioned the two bills coming forward. I agree with my colleague on the evidence-based.... You're certainly going to have a hard case to make there, because no reputable criminologist I know would ever suggest that large increases in mandatory minimums, or a dramatic reduction in conditional sentencing to cover a whole bunch of non-violent crimes, would ever work, especially when such changes are prejudicial to aboriginal people.

Do you or Mr. Sims have any idea what the backlog or the average condition of the Human Rights Commission is right now? Are they totally caught up with their work, or do they have a lot of work waiting?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Let's get back to your opening comments, because I simply can't accept that you indicate somehow that crime rates are declining with respect to these violent gun crimes.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

I didn't say violent gun crimes; I said in the majority of crimes in general.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Now you're stating it's the majority of crimes in general. You can see what the legislation is focused on: it's focused on gun crimes and gang activity. As a prosecutor recently said in Windsor, Ontario, following a specific incident, the connection between drugs and guns is very clear.

It's no surprise to see the violence in Toronto. The police chief in Toronto supports these initiatives. Indeed, the Premier of Ontario supports these initiatives. That's why we're moving in a targeted way, with respect to mandatory minimum prison sentences.

I find it ironic that as a member--

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Could you answer my question on human rights?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Well, just a minute. As a member of a government that supported the long gun registry for ten years and poured $1 billion into a registry that had absolutely no basis in any fact—

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Could you answer my question? We only have five minutes. I asked about human rights.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I will get to the human rights, but if you want to put false statements on the record, I have the right to correct them. That's what I'm doing.

Here's a member of a government who supported the long–gun registry for ten years, and we've spent $1 billion on that registry with no impact on crime. That's the impact of the gun registry. Now you're saying, please bring me evidence to show that mandatory minimum prison sentences for gun crimes don't work. I can indicate--

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Can you answer my question now?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

We will get the statistics, but it's wrong to simply say that.

Now, with respect to the Human Rights Commission, Mr. Sims will answer that.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

So you make a speech, and the one question I ask you, you have to get the bureaucrat to answer.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Did you want the answer or not?

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Go ahead.

[John Sims, Deputy Minister and Deputy Attorney General, Department of Justice]

The outgoing Chief Commissioner of the Canadian Human Rights Commission, Mary Gusella, made it an enormous priority during her tenure to try to reduce the serious backlog. My understanding is she made enormous strides, putting particular emphasis on the use of mediation.

Given the arm's-length relationship between the commission and the minister, it might be appropriate to invite Ms. Gusella or her successor to give the statistics on her behalf. But I think it's a good story that they would be able to tell.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

What measures is the minister taking with regard to discrimination prevention? Will the Canadian Human Rights Commission be given adequate resources to assist in this effort? The reason I'm asking this is because in her 2005-06 report, she says they may not have enough money to do research and preventative programs, which the minister is supporting--and I'm glad he did. If their cases have been rising for the fourth year in a row, why would the minister be giving a $1.4 million decrease in funding for the Human Rights Commission?

[John Sims]

We'll have to come back with a detailed explanation. Or perhaps we could invite the commissioner to come again and explain how she proposes to operate with her budget.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

One of the reasons--