Evidence of meeting #18 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was need.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Hear me out. The prohibition against homicide has not managed to eradicate it--far from it. Cities like Vancouver, where I understand you live, and certainly cities such as Edmonton, where I live, have exponential growth in the homicide rate.
So where is that analogy breaking down? If prohibition ought to be abandoned because of its alleged failure in drug use, why is prohibition still a valid policy with respect to violence against individuals and homicide?
3:55 p.m.
Board Member, Chair, Drug Policy Committee, BC Civil Liberties Association
The analogy breaks down in three ways.
First, it breaks down factually. There isn't a dramatic increase in the homicide rate in this country or in this city. Also, frankly, it breaks down in terms of category, because homicide is a crime against another person. The participants in this crime are not consenting to the crime, whereas in drug trafficking, the participants are consenting to the crime, which leads to a very difficult investigative situation for police. As well, there isn't a criminal market in homicide, or not much of one; there are contract killings, most of those spawned, frankly, by the drug trade. But there is a lucrative criminal market in currently illicit substances.
We see very clearly from the example of alcohol prohibition that the moment it ended, the homicide rate in the United States dropped precipitously, and we can expect the same kind of result here in Canada.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Okay. So in the twenties, when prohibition was the law with respect to alcohol in the United States, organized crime made a lot of money on it.
3:55 p.m.
Board Member, Chair, Drug Policy Committee, BC Civil Liberties Association
Yes, they did.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
There were the rum-runners such as Al Capone and others. But you will agree with me that when prohibition was abandoned in the United States, that wasn't the end of organized crime. Organized crime always finds another currency, and I would suggest to you, sir, that if it's not drugs, it'll be guns or prostitution or child labour. It'll be something.
3:55 p.m.
Board Member, Chair, Drug Policy Committee, BC Civil Liberties Association
I agree with the premise that organized crime is not going to disappear when we end drug prohibition. The fact of the matter is, however.... Again, don't take my word for it. It is the criminal intelligence service telling you this. Each year when it publishes its annual report on organized crime, it tells you very clearly that the primary funding source for organized criminal groups is the prohibition on illegal drugs, and the marketplace is their spawn. So if we take away that money from these groups, they lose power. They also, as Mr. Amar has pointed out, lose a massive recruiting tool for future generations.
I don't say that ending drug prohibition is going to solve all of our problems as a magic bullet today. I'm looking 20, 30, or 50 years down the line, when we see that by cutting off the major funding source of these organized criminal groups, we cut off the incentive for people to go into them, and we decrease their power exponentially.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
You represent a group called the BC Civil Liberties Association. I understand that you protect the individual rights and freedoms of the individual, and I think in large part I respect that. You may have heard that in my city last Saturday, at the West Edmonton Mall, a 14-year-old girl purchased $10 worth of ecstasy from a 16-year-old individual, who sold it to her--
4 p.m.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
--and she died of an overdose. So in that circumstance, you'll agree with me that this is not a victimless crime.
4 p.m.
Board Member, Chair, Drug Policy Committee, BC Civil Liberties Association
What I will agree with is that prohibition failed to save her life and in fact almost undoubtedly contributed to her death.
4 p.m.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Mr. Amar was quite careful when he advocated for the decriminalization of marijuana. You have not been so specific. If I'm to understand you correctly, you are against the prohibition for all drugs, including heroin and methamphetamine?
4 p.m.
Board Member, Chair, Drug Policy Committee, BC Civil Liberties Association
And again, I'll reiterate that I present views as myself and not necessarily as a member of the British Columbia Civil Liberties Association, but I will have to say emphatically yes.
The regulation and legalization of marijuana is a good first step; however, it does not solve the problems caused by addiction. It does not solve the problems caused by the prohibition and the criminalization of addiction and the victimization that prohibition visits on our most marginalized and most disadvantaged citizens.
So, no, it cannot stop with just marijuana. People will continue to die in the streets of Vancouver and across this country until we've woken up to the fact that our policies have failed. They've failed everywhere they've been tried, at every historical moment. There's no reason to speculate that they can succeed today. I think this committee owes Canadians the responsibility to deal with the facts as they are, not the fantasy of what we'd like them to be.
4 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Ed Fast
Thank you so much to our witnesses. I just have one last question.
Mr. Tousaw, you already gave your opinion on the issue.
I assume, Mr. Shavluk, you're also in favour of getting rid of all prohibition. Is that right?
4 p.m.
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition (LEAP)
To be honest with you, I'm actually a fairly conservative-minded person. That's just the lesser of two evils.
4 p.m.
Conservative
4 p.m.
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition (LEAP)
I would like to...like they do in Amsterdam. This will only take a second. If you research, you'll find that instead of spending all this money on crime and so on, these people were given a shot of heroin in the morning and another one in the evening, and what happened--
4 p.m.
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition (LEAP)
I just want to point this out. The option is available because it costs a lot to--
4 p.m.
Conservative
4 p.m.
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition (LEAP)
Treating it as a medical issue solved their problem with 70% of the addicts.
4 p.m.
Filmmaker, As an Individual
I agree with Mr. Tousaw that marijuana is a good starting point.
4 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Ed Fast
General legalization. That would include legalizing cocaine eventually, and crystal meth and heroin. Is that right?
4 p.m.
Filmmaker, As an Individual
Yes, we shouldn't stop at marijuana, but marijuana should be the starting point as the major incentive.