Justice Committee on Oct. 22nd, 2009

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We're going to go to Mr. Norlock.

Yes?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I need to correct a comment I made earlier about the crime rate in Canada, on the 100,000. The number of 600 plus is in fact accurate. It has been for the last number of years, and going down, but the ratio on the 100,000 is more like 4.5 or 4.8 if you do the math. I think the two-plus figure that I gave was actually for the adult population, per 100,000 of adult population. It's about 2.4 or 2.5.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Are you referring to the crime rate or the murder rate?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

That's the murder rate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Right. Okay, thank you.

We'll move on to Mr. Norlock.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Dr. Shaw, for your attendance here today.

I notice some of your international experience. You say there need to be targeted initiatives, but it takes all levels of government, including non-government agencies.

My background is in policing. You mentioned how policing needs to be about more than just enforcing the laws; it needs to be integrated into the community. I'm sure you are aware that every Canadian police organization has community-based policing as the methodology of their delivery of policing services.

Near the end of my career my background was in bringing in programs. Some of the programs that policing is actually involved in have an integrated component, like the DARE program that works with the local health units, other organizations, and the Cancer Society to teach youth that you don't need to have drugs and alcohol, including tobacco, in order to have fun. I'm sure you're aware of those programs.

Going back to your international experience, one of the programs I worked on near the end of my career was on restorative justice. It comes from the Maori Indians in New Zealand, and is successful in treating not only young people but also adults. We need to look at other countries, as you mentioned, but we also need to congratulate ourselves and not get too hung up on that. People need to look at the things we do.

Recently in my own community, as a result of the government's drug treatment and crime prevention strategies, not an insignificant amount of money went to our local health unit. That flowed to one of the local youth services groups called Rebound Child & Youth Services. It put the health unit at the disposal of the local high schools and primary schools. If a student--or a parent for that matter--came to them and said they think they have a problem with drugs, or they tried some marijuana and they're not too sure, they've heard it's not bad for you, and then somebody else would say no, it's not good for you, they could go to health care professionals.

I wonder if you have had any experience in those realms in Canada. We adapted the DARE program, which actually came from the street and gun crimes gangs--the tattooed-type of people you were talking about in California. It grew and is very successful.

[Dr. Margaret Shaw]

I think you're absolutely right that Canada has some very good programs. I'm not sure where your constituency is, but I know that the Ottawa-Carleton police have done some extraordinarily successful work with young people, working with NGOs and community groups on the ground.

In Montreal there are some good examples too. I think there are some in Edmonton. It's always difficult, because Canada is so much more open to community policing. We have all of these things. We have a good base of organizations on the ground, and NGOs. I think it's a strength that we need to continue to support.

I think it's very important to build the links between the police and the community. NGOs can often be instrumental in helping that, because trust in the police varies enormously, depending on which country or city you live in, and your age, colour, and all those factors. I think it's tremendously important that the police are working with local communities and groups, in whatever ways will help, to create better relations and understanding between the two. In that way you avoid the kinds of things that happened in Montreal North, for example.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

I'm glad you mentioned that, because I just happened to be watching the news last night, and when we talk about international and.... We have a United Nations group that met with a local group, I think it was today or yesterday. There appeared to be--and one has to be cautious about news reports--a reluctance by this human rights group from the United Nations to interview the police and to talk to them about what they've done before and after that experience, that community-type base, and what they're doing to alleviate.... Then they interviewed a spokesperson for the police department. And yet the United Nations group didn't talk to them about how they have it written into their policy and are vehemently against racial profiling and all those other things. From watching that news report, I think what that does to the average Canadian--if you have any influence over or any connections with the UN group--it takes any kind of report they bring back to Canada and says they didn't go to all the people to get all the answers. They just got one side of the story.

I wonder if you have any comments about that, the perception there.

[Dr. Margaret Shaw]

I agree with you. I think it is important in those kinds of investigations to talk to everybody.

I don't know whether you are aware of it, but you might be interested to know that the International Centre for the Prevention of Crime produced a report for the Montreal police in collaboration with the University of Montreal. It looked at urban riots and at the kinds of events that happened in Britain, France, and Australia after the Montreal riot. That report is available in French. I can make sure it's sent to you. It is an analysis of what happened in France after les émeutes in 2005 and of what happened in Australia. It tries to analyze the conditions that resulted in the riots that took place.

I hope in some sense it's something that speaks to those issues too.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Rathgeber.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for your presentation.

I have a couple of questions about the International Centre for the Prevention of Crime. I must admit I had not heard of it until this morning. I take it you're a Montreal-based research institute or think tank.

[Dr. Margaret Shaw]

We are a Montreal-based international non-governmental organization supported by the governments of Canada, Quebec, France, Australia, South Africa...a range of governments. The founding governments were France, Canada, and Quebec.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

So it's international. Do you have other offices besides Montreal?

[Dr. Margaret Shaw]

No, just here in Montreal.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

And all your funding comes from the taxpayers?

[Dr. Margaret Shaw]

Our funding comes from our member governments.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

You have no private donors?

[Dr. Margaret Shaw]

Sometimes we have money from the World Bank or other organizations of that kind. I think we may have got small grants from Montréal International, these kinds of organizations.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Approximately how many staff members do you have here in Montreal?

[Dr. Margaret Shaw]

We have about 15 staff.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

You're not affiliated with the University of Montreal or any other-....

[Dr. Margaret Shaw]

We have an agreement with the University of Montreal, with the University of Hurtado in Chile, with other universities. We work with them to do research in their areas. We're certainly affiliated with the University of Montreal to share expertise. People come on a stage and work with us. We work with them on projects.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Are you or any of your staff members of the faculty of the University of Montreal?