Evidence of meeting #40 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was montreal.
Investigative Journalist, As an Individual
In most of the major what we call the anti-gang trials, proving the predicate act, whether it's a drug deal or what not, is relatively simple. It's proving the gang connections that can be hard.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
I would like to thank you once again for being here today. You're making me take a different look at journalists.
I have a question for Mr. Sher, but I'm going to continue in English.
Although I haven't read it, I know, Mr. Sher, that you've written a book entitled One Child at a Time: The Global Fight to Rescue Children from Online Predators. You touched very briefly at the beginning of your remarks about similar issues, the kidnapping of a young girl getting headlines. I have a quote that came to my attention from Beyond Borders regarding this issue. It says:
In terms of sentencing in Canada for crimes against children in general, they are very, very, very lenient. Traffickers of human beings, especially children, are not individuals that should get a slap on the wrist. A message should be sent from the courtroom--and that's what Joy Smith is trying to do--that there's no tolerance for this type of behaviour.
Your comment about headlines occurring when a girl gets kidnapped is an area I'd like to explore, because it struck me that perhaps you were drawing a link between that kind of activity and organized crime. So I wonder if you can tell me anything about what degree of human trafficking might exist in Montreal, and to what degree organized crime may be involved in it, and in what degree there is profi--those kinds of questions.
Merci.
Investigative Journalist, As an Individual
I have to put on my other hat. I wasn't thinking of talking about child predators.
Let me say briefly that most of the Internet traffic, child pornography and those kinds of crimes, is organized through networks, but not necessarily through traditional organized crime networks. That being said, in my book and in other investigations, there is a fair amount of evidence showing involvement by eastern European and Russian organized crime.
J.P. Lévesque and other members of the RCMP at the time also documented examples where the Hells Angels were involved in the trafficking of young women coming into Canada to work in strip bars. And some of the money being made on the Internet on trafficking will be used by organized crime. There actually was a Hells Angels member who not only was a member of the Hells Angels in the United States, but was a member of the Hells Angels who ran a brothel and was also arrested on child porn. So you do see that nexus.
Let me say that an interesting example of creative use of organized crime law, is that one of the things they've done in the States, which we should try to do here, is the FBI started a prosecution where they got three or four people involved in Internet pornography, child pornography issues, but laid gangsterism, RICO charges, by showing that basically they were an organized crime network. So we can broaden out our definition about organized crime.
One of the biggest busts we had in Canada, which had reverberations around the world, was a major, major project. They busted men and they were able to prove that they were all part of a network. That's organized crime, and it's affecting our children.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
I want to narrow my question and move a little away from the online issues to the actual human trafficking that is associated with that.
I'd like to get your idea. I'm not from Quebec and I'm not familiar with the scenario in Quebec. Is human trafficking an issue in Quebec, in Montreal, and is it involved with organized crime?
Investigative Journalist, As an Individual
I'm not an expert on the situation here, but yes is the short answer, if you speak to any of the major international groups that are fighting the trafficking of young women.
My next book is on trafficking and child prostitutes. We can talk about human trafficking, but the biggest amount of human trafficking that takes place in our country is domestic. In other words, it's the trafficking of young girls from the east end of Montreal to work in strip joints along the highway. It's the trafficking of girls from Alberta to work in strip bars or as prostitutes in Vancouver. Sure, the foreign element is important, but the absolute vast majority of girls who are trafficked in our country are Canadian girls. It's the same in the United States with American girls. That trafficking is done through organized crime networks.
The Hells Angels are known to control a big part of the prostitution networks in British Columbia. At the time I was investigating the Hells Angels here, most of the strip joints up and down the highway were controlled by organized crime. You can't have that network of prostitution and strip joints without organized crime being involved.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
Do you have any comment on the recommendation from the international organization Beyond Borders about whether existing Canadian law is adequate to deter and whether there should be more deterrent sentences in relation to this area?
Investigative Journalist, As an Individual
Canadian laws in terms of child abuse and trafficking are nothing short of pathetic. I don't want to go into detail, but look at what the U.K. and the Americans do when their citizens are abroad and abuse children, or when their citizens are involved in trafficking, with the number of special police squads that are set up and the extraterritoriality.
As far as I know, Canada has prosecuted only one or two people for international child abuse cases and trafficking. Our laws are in deep need of reform.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses.
Mr. Auger, you talked about conditional sentences somewhat critically.
Mr. Lévesque, if I wrote this down correctly, you said that the gangsters do not get reintegrated into society after two-thirds or one-third of their sentence. That's a premise I would certainly agree with.
There is currently a bill before the House of Commons, Bill C-42. I don't know if either of you are familiar with it. It purports to end conditional sentences for a whole range of criminal activity that is currently eligible for a conditional sentence, colloquially often known as house arrest. Some of those offences are criminal harassment, kidnapping, human trafficking—which we just talked about—abduction, theft over $5,000, and arson. I'm sure you'll agree that many of those activities are ones that are pursued by organized criminals from time to time.
So I wonder whether either of you have any comment regarding this bill, if you've had a chance to study it; and if not, perhaps you might have some comment based on its purported purpose as I've just outlined to you.
Investigative Journalist (Retired), As an Individual
I'm not familiar with the bill, so I cannot comment specifically on it.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Do you support the concept of ending conditional sentencing for the types of activities that I just outlined: harassment, kidnapping, abduction, theft over $5,000, and arson?
Investigative Journalist (Retired), As an Individual
Pardon me, but I can't answer your question. What is the translation of “conditional sentencing”?
Royal Canadian Mounted Police (Retired), As an Individual
I don't know the bill in question. I can't comment on that.
October 22nd, 2009 / 10:30 a.m.
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Ed Fast
Do we have anyone else from the government side?
If not, then Ms. Jennings.
Liberal
Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC
Thank you.
In response to my last question concerning the intervention of representatives from the Canada Revenue Agency and those from the provincial level, you said that there was a lot of cooperation but that we would do well to examine the judgment in the high-profile case in British Columbia because it sets certain limits on the kind of cooperation that there can be.
Most people here have, in a social context or in the neighbourhood, met people who seem to lead a lifestyle that far exceeds their potential incomes. I understand that the agency has the power to examine certain cases, to receive information to the effect that it would do well to take a somewhat closer look at the income tax returns of such and such a person and that, if the information appears to come from a credible source, etc., officials have the power to look a little further.
I'm going to read the judgment, but I wonder why, if the revenue departments receive information concerning individuals who belong to organized crime groups or who belong to a ring, they don't have the power to study that more closely.
Investigative Journalist (Retired), As an Individual
At the start of his presentation, Julian talked about the importance of public awareness, but also about agencies. The problem I see at the Canada Revenue Agency is that it puts all citizens on an equal footing. No distinction is drawn for organized crime. That's the problem. If more investigations were conducted, I think that would be better. Al Capone was caught out on taxes, and that's the direction we should be taking, because the entire problem of organized crime in Canada is based on clandestine money that isn't touched. There must be a more aggressive position on investigations, customs and everywhere. That's how we'll achieve results, if one day we manage to do so.
Liberal
Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC
It's also a matter of training because the people hired in the public service are ordinary, honest citizens. They aren't steeped in that environment and perhaps don't automatically question the returns of a very large majority of cases. Those people must also be given certain training so that they can take a different look at things.
Investigative Journalist (Retired), As an Individual
That's true. They aren't police officers, but there have to be directives providing for a more aggressive approach to investigations. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is good for everyone, all Canadians, but it's the criminals who take the most advantage of it because they can afford to go and fight in court, to have lawyers. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is great in principle, but, in practice, that's not how it works.
It's the same thing for tax. If you adopt a more aggressive attitude toward organized crime money, you'll have a greater impact on society.
Royal Canadian Mounted Police (Retired), As an Individual
We're talking about working with officials from the Revenue Department, and I remember that, in certain investigations, we had to put on the brakes. Why? Because the legal departments told them to go no further with the investigation for various reasons, perhaps because of a lack of information, I don't know. We never received the answer to that. All we were told was that officials couldn't continue because the legal departments had told them to stop.
Consider the example of the Immigration Act. In 1992, we had to go and make a presentation to legal department representatives, with supporting documents, to inform them about what the Hells Angels really were and about the work they were doing.
As regards what Mr. Sher was saying earlier, in the case of British Columbia, it's a personal initiative that was introduced. It was a Vancouver police officer who formed a team, ambitious as he was, that wanted to attack the Hells Angels and start investigating the entire organization. The Hells Angels' lawyers obviously mounted the barricades, but the police officers were nevertheless able to continue their investigation. Unfortunately, the initiative was not pursued across the country to the same extent. Once again, that bounced back to Ottawa, and the legal departments got cold feet and put on the brakes.
In addition to training, the laws should be more coercive. If an act on gangsterism is established, as soon as you pronounce the word, and pin it to someone, then everything is permitted, obviously within certain parameters, but everything is permitted.