Justice Committee on Oct. 26th, 2010

[Mia Dauvergne]

We can certainly give you examples.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Ms. Xavier, the reason I asked to have your agency come today was to tell us whether you have done an analysis of how much additional work you're going to be authorized to do through these amendments. I'm looking for an analysis of how many additional staff you will be hiring to take on this responsibility and what that's going to cost CBSA.

[Caroline Xavier]

There is no expectation at this point to proceed to hire new resources or FTs to do this work.

That said, part of the reason we need this legislation is that we are so limited in what we can do, specifically with regard to stolen vehicles, to really understand the magnitude of the situation. What we will do upon receipt of this law is proceed to do more analysis with regard to the types of exports going on. We will specifically focus on stolen vehicles. Just as we did with the probe, we will be able to do more coordinated efforts with our law enforcement partners, and perhaps look in more depth at the types of situations that exist across the country. At that point we would also look at realigning our resources based on our dual mandate.

As you know, our priority is to focus on importation, on what's coming into the country. That said, we have a dual mandate of looking at export and the facilitation of trade. Based on risk analysis and on intelligence information, we would realign our resources, as required, for what we do on a daily basis, because now we'll have this law and we'll really be able to apply it more effectively.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

That worries me.

I come from Windsor. I don't want you taking staff out of the Windsor office and moving them to Montreal and Halifax, where we already know there is a good deal of exporting of stolen vehicles. Are you saying that, in fact, is a possibility?

[Caroline Xavier]

I'm not saying they would necessarily be coming from Windsor. For example, when we did the probe, during a six-month period we did a focused effort of having our existing staff focus in the port of Halifax and Montreal with our law enforcement partner. We might do another stint of that nature, but it didn't mean that we took people away from Windsor. We just ensured that those already doing the work in Montreal were giving a more focused attention to certain containers, based on the information we were provided.

Once we have this law, we will be able to do that even more effectively, because we'll work consistently with our law enforcement partners and perhaps have these types of stints. At this point I'm not saying that we would automatically be taking an individual from Windsor and realigning that person to Montreal or something like that. First of all, realigning people of that nature is an expensive proposition. It would mean potentially that on that day, if we have intelligence-based information, we might just say that the people doing imports might be focused a little bit more on exports. They would not necessarily be coming from another port of entry per se.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

From what you said today in reading your prepared statement, I just can't imagine your doing this additional work and not requiring additional staff, and not just in the major ports, but even in the smaller ports. I'm having some difficulty accepting that as the reality. I just can't believe you're going to be doing that. I'll leave that as a statement. You don't have to respond to it.

In terms of the present situation, though, am I correct in understanding that you have not been allocated any additional funds to take on these additional responsibilities?

[Caroline Xavier]

That's correct.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

The intent at this point is to try to do it from within existing staff.

[Caroline Xavier]

That's correct.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Those are all the questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you, Mr. Comartin.

We'll move to Mr. Norlock for seven minutes.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

My questions will primarily be to the CBSA officials. To an extent I'm taking a line of questioning that Mr. Comartin was on.

With regard to the special program through which 258 stolen vehicles were recovered, I gather from your statement that you used existing people, but just had them more concentrated. Maybe you didn't say, but if I remember correctly, were there not other law enforcement officials working in that program with you?

[Caroline Xavier]

That's correct. We had the RCMP, along with some local jurisdictions.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Would the reason for that be because you didn't have the benefit of this legislation? They had access to the databases that one would require in order to ascertain whether vehicles were stolen or not.

[Caroline Xavier]

That's correct.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

If you could just go along with me here, when we were doing another study—from that study came of course these recommendations that we look at this act and prepare additions to the act—one of the witnesses basically said that containers were being loaded, and CBSA officials, because you didn't have the statutory powers to look into the containers.... Because we know you don't look into every container, right?

[Caroline Xavier]

That's right. Not on the export, that's correct.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Not on the export.

You look into containers that your investigative and historical.... From a policing background, I used to call them my alarm bells. So your trained officials smell something fishy going on, so they'll look in a container. Would that be correct?

[Caroline Xavier]

I'll use the CBSA language—

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Use the terminology you like.

[Caroline Xavier]

That would be appropriate.

Basically what happens is when a person provides us with the export declaration, we look at that declaration to determine whether it looks kosher, as you say, whether it looks right, whether what is being exported and the destination it is destined for seem right. Then we will do a random check of the container. So at that point in time, when we're looking at this documentation, should the requirement occur that we would want to do an examination, we would be checking the container to see that it matches the declaration we've received.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you.

I always go into these questions with the assumption that somebody at home is looking at and listening to this, and of course in the Ottawa bubble we assume that everyone knows what we mean, but they don't. I think it would surprise Canadians that a country like New Zealand, or any country, would have to make a law that says it's against the law to export stolen goods. Yet you're saying that actually you need that kind of legislation in order to do your job.

[Caroline Xavier]

That's correct.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

When you were being asked what kind of material would be exported that you might be looking at, I can think of a couple right off the top of my head. You'd be looking at, for instance, tapes or CDs going out of the country. You would be alerted to perhaps the exportation of child pornography. You would also be looking at certain material that might be nuclear in nature that would be against the law unless there were proper documentation—

[Caroline Xavier]

Permits.