Justice Committee on Feb. 14th, 2011

Evidence of meeting #48 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was research.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Bill C-54, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (sexual offences against children)

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Vernon Quinsey Professor Emeritus of Psychology, Queen's University, As an Individual

Hubert Van Gijseghem Psychologist and Professor (retired), University of Montreal, As an Individual

R. Karl Hanson Senior Research Scientist, Corrections and Criminal Justice, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Ed McIsaac Interim Director, Policy, John Howard Society of Canada

Richard Haughian Vice-President, Church Council on Justice and Corrections

Lorraine Berzins Community Chair of Justice, Church Council on Justice and Corrections

5 p.m.

Community Chair of Justice, Church Council on Justice and Corrections

Lorraine Berzins

We don't speak on behalf of the churches. We were founded 39 years ago because the churches realized, through the chaplains of the denominations who were working in prison and also working with victims they were encountering, that it wasn't enough to just minister them through chaplaincy, that there was something flawed in the system that they were picking up, and the churches needed to learn more about this.

We were mandated to use the best of our experience and knowledge, and help the churches reflect on the implications for our communities of having a justice system that does so much injustice. We produced resources that helped them reflect on that and we assessed the situation.

In conjunction with representatives of the churches and very much a collegial process of discernment, we are able to arrive at some conclusions and directions of what we think would be better for communities, so we share that with them.

But each church takes their own position. We don't take positions on their behalf. We give them the resources with which they can take their own position.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you.

5:05 p.m.

Community Chair of Justice, Church Council on Justice and Corrections

Lorraine Berzins

I'd just like to say one more thing that I forgot to say earlier.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

You can say that maybe in the next round. You'll get another chance.

Monsieur Ménard.

5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I thank the witnesses for appearing before the committee. It will be of great use to us.

Mr. Hanson, it is the first time I am seeing these documents or even these types of documents. Is the government hiding them? How can we find out about these documents? You must certainly have many others which could be useful to us in our consideration of other criminal legislation.

5:05 p.m.

Senior Research Scientist, Corrections and Criminal Justice, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

R. Karl Hanson

In fact, this research has been on our Web site for a long time. It has also been published. If you would like, we could add your names to a distribution list.

5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Yes, but I would first like to go to a place where I can find the entire list and see...

5:05 p.m.

Senior Research Scientist, Corrections and Criminal Justice, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

R. Karl Hanson

Yes indeed, that is all available on the Public Safety Web site.

5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you.

My question is for the Church Council on Justice and Corrections representatives.

I am the one who asked to have you appear. I had never heard of you before I learned about a letter you had sent to the Prime Minister on December 17. It was referred to in Le Devoir. That is how I discovered your existence. Now that I've heard from you, I think I will be asking you to appear again. Even if you are disappointed by this current bill, it has to be said we are dealing here with one of the worst possible crimes. That is certainly how the public in general sees things.

I read your letter dated December 17. Have you gotten a response?

5:05 p.m.

Community Chair of Justice, Church Council on Justice and Corrections

Lorraine Berzins

I am not at the office every day, but I do not think so.

5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

The Minister of Justice said... It is unclear. We do not know if he has heard about the letter, if he has read it or if he is vaguely aware of its contents. Regardless, it would seem that you have not received a response. When you deal with these matters, it would perhaps be a good idea to also send a copy of the letter you sent to the Prime Minister to the Minister of Justice.

5:05 p.m.

Community Chair of Justice, Church Council on Justice and Corrections

Lorraine Berzins

Yes.

5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

I am not sure he will read it, but it would help you make your point.

5:05 p.m.

Community Chair of Justice, Church Council on Justice and Corrections

Lorraine Berzins

People from one of our churches wrote to the Minister of Justice instead of the Prime Minister. Moreover, we sent this letter to the heads of all political parties.

5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Oh, I see. Perhaps that is how I received it, but I first heard about it in Le Devoir.

I'd like to ask you a question. There are already some minimum sentences in the Criminal Code. Personally, I have a bias against minimums, but they do exist for the most serious crimes.

Do you have the same attitude about, for instance, minimum sentences for murder?

5:05 p.m.

Community Chair of Justice, Church Council on Justice and Corrections

Lorraine Berzins

I think they have been established for a long time and that they are better than the death penalty.

5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Yes.

5:05 p.m.

Community Chair of Justice, Church Council on Justice and Corrections

Lorraine Berzins

So, that is not my top concern at the moment.

I know why they are not needed. When the Crown feels that it is not appropriate, they may lay manslaughter charges. They do have choices. That is what happens.

5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

I can tell you that in practice, I have seen crown attorneys bring murder charges against...

5:05 p.m.

Community Chair of Justice, Church Council on Justice and Corrections

Lorraine Berzins

Yes.

5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

... people who, clearly, were only guilty of manslaughter, in order to get a guilty plea to manslaughter.

5:05 p.m.

Community Chair of Justice, Church Council on Justice and Corrections

Lorraine Berzins

Actually, I will change my answer. No, I am not in favour of mandatory minimums, for anything. I think we have the tools we need so that when a life sentence is really required, we can impose one. That is what matters. However, if we are locked into a practice we cannot do without...

We have also seen the case... Oh Lord, I do not recall the name.

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Are you referring to the Latimer case?

5:10 p.m.

Community Chair of Justice, Church Council on Justice and Corrections

Lorraine Berzins

Yes, I think many Canadians find that rigidity excessive.

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Now, at the other extreme, there are short minimums.