Justice Committee on April 29th, 2013

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Absolutely. I am sorry. My legal side got carried away. I will wear my criminologist hat now.

I will tell you about what I know best because I have seen it on a daily basis and I have met with them, in other words street gangs. For a long time, they have been recruiting young girls. Today, street gangs are not only recruiters, they are high-level pimps. In other words, they transfer young girls from one area to another. For instance, there are groups in Niagara. I am referring specifically to that area because they have close links with Montreal-based groups.

Recruiting usually starts with seduction. At first, men will seduce the young girls. Make no mistake; this does not mean these young girls are necessarily poor, there are also middle class girls who end up ensnared by these guys.

At first, a young girl may believe she loves this man and that he is her boyfriend. So, there is deceit and manipulation. He will have her experience all sorts of things. He will take her out and buy her gifts. However, at some point, he starts telling her that she has to pay off the debt.

A great deal of disinhibition occurs. Young girls are sent to parties and, I am sorry, but I will be using crude terms, they are brought there so that they will sleep with everyone and take part in orgies. The men start to do this type of thing and when the girls start saying no, that is when they take these girls by force and stick them in apartments. They do not even know where they are and groups of men rape them. This is what they call a gangbang. Sometimes they will be raped by 15 guys in a row.

We heard testimony from a victim who said 40 guys had raped her in the course of one evening. She could not remember when it started or when it ended. This case is currently before the courts.

Afterwards, the young girls are completely isolated. Their families are threatened, their little brothers or little sisters. They are told that they will not be getting it but their little brother or their little sister may. They absolutely terrorize these young girls. They take away all of their ID. The only thing these girls will be allowed to do is put on makeup. They will be given clothes and have to deal with 10, 20 or 30 johns per day.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, madam.

Our next questioner is from the Liberal Party, Mr. Bélanger.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

You have five minutes, or with my discretion, a little bit more, maybe.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you.

As you know, I am not a member of this committee; I am replacing my colleague, Mr. Cotler. He made a statement regarding your bill. Have you read it?

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Yes, I have.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

He supports several elements of your bill without hesitation. In fact, he commends you on your bill. I am doing the same.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Also, he points out two issues. He was hoping they would be examined a bit more closely by the committee.

The first relates to a point already raised by Ms. Smith. It has to do with concurrent sentences. Can they be concurrent or must they be consecutive?

Mr. Cotler wanted to know to what extent you would be open to this notion. He does not want to restrict judges' discretionary powers with impunity. Obviously, circumstances vary from case to case. So there is a need for this discretion.

He seemed to favour encouraging the imposition of consecutive sentences rather than making this an obligation. We have seen the result of your discussions with the Quebec Bar Association. If this question was raised, what were your thoughts on the matter?

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you for your question.

First of all, in my discussion with the Quebec Bar Association, the issue of consecutive sentences has not been a problem. There was more discussion about reverse onus. That discussion did happen, but—

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Are you referring to presumption?

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Yes, that is correct, presumption.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

That is the second issue, I will get back to you.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

With respect to consecutive sentences, I did listen closely to my colleague Mr. Cotler's speech. I must say that I'm still having some difficulties understanding what problem may arise with respect to judicial independence. I called for additional research to be done to make sure I was not mistaken. I would like to tell you about Mr. Dadour's philosophy, put forward in 2007. I could send Mr. Cotler information to that effect, but I am sure that he must already have it. In fact he refers to two cases that are before the Supreme Court on the issue of consecutive sentences.

There is the issue of totality. Let me give you an example. Let's imagine that someone is charged with trafficking, procuring and aggravated assault and is found guilty. Let's assume the judge imposes a three year sentence for trafficking, two years for procuring and two years for aggravated assault. If it were a concurrent sentence, it would amount to three years. If these were consecutive sentences, he could hand down exactly the same sentences. Nothing is preventing him from handing down those sentences. He has all the latitude required to do so. By virtue of the principle of totality, he will do mathematical calculations. If at the end of the day he wants to hand down a seven-year sentence or a five-year sentence, he will do the calculations in order to arrive at a five- or seven-year sentence overall.

I can get back to what my colleague was saying. He was concerned that there may be a danger of limiting judicial discretion. As far as I am concerned, that is not the case because this is not a mandatory minimum sentence. In his book, Mr. Dadour states that “the legislator provides...”. Indeed, the Criminal Code already contains consecutive sentences. They are related to offences such as the use of a firearm, terrorism, possession and manufacturing of explosive substances. You see what I mean. There are five of these offences in the Criminal Code. He clearly states that the principle of totality is also a logical outcome of the principle of proportionality. The judge is therefore not only independent in his decision-making, but he will also take into consideration this principle of totality which is directly related to the principle of proportionality of the offence and sentence.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

In listening to you, Ms. Mourani, I am sensing that the principle of totality would lead to longer or harsher sentences. I am not a lawyer but could there be circumstances where judges may want to be more lenient and reduce the total sentence?

Today there are cases before the courts involving young girls who allegedly acted as pimps for other young girls, for instance. So, if the judiciary wanted a lesser sentence rather than a harsher sentence but the consecutive sentences were mandatory, would judges not be bound by that?

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I would say that that is not at all the case given that the totality principle is determined by the judge. It is the judge who decides on the totality of the sentence. Therefore, if the judge wants to hand down a total sentence of three years, he or she will impose three one-year sentences. You see how it works?

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Except in the case of minimum sentences.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

That is something different. If there are minimum sentences, the judge is required to impose them.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

In certain cases, these may be consecutive.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I am not 100% sure about that.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Nor I. I will allow my colleague, Mr. Cotler, to clarify that.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

All right.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I'm done.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I would just like to add that the two offences that carry consecutive sentences are human trafficking and procuring. There are no minimum sentences in those cases.