Justice Committee on April 29th, 2013

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Not yet.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

There are none. I can only work with the Criminal Code as it stands.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

All right.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Merci.

Our next questioner is Mr. Albas from the Conservative Party.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank our witness for being here today.

This committee in particular has done a lot of private members' business in the area of the Criminal Code, so I'm certainly getting a lot more familiar with the provisions of the Criminal Code, the different philosophies of either party, and individual members and their concerns.

I'm going to reference some of your comments that you made earlier today in your opening testimony.

Our committee recently studied Bill C-394, which is on criminal organization recruitment. That was introduced by our Conservative colleague Parm Gill. Mr. Gill's bill proposes to create a new indictable offence that would prohibit the recruitment, solicitation, encouragement, or initiation of another person to join a criminal organization. This offence would be punishable by a maximum of five years' imprisonment, with a mandatory minimum imprisonment of six months if the individual who is recruited is under the age of 18.

In your testimony you clearly linked human trafficking with criminal organizations, particularly organized crime. In my opinion, a link can be made between the harmful actions of street gangs and the trafficking of women. Unfortunately, street gangs are using the trafficking of women more and more in helping to advance their goals.

Could you please explain a bit more about the relationship between the trafficking of women and street gangs?

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you very much for the question.

You are completely right in saying that recruiting is very important. These groups thrive on the recruiting of young girls. In the 1980s and 1990s, street gangs were a lot less enterprising, but they have become expert recruiters and they now specialize in juvenile prostitution. It is their specialty.

Unfortunately they recruit vulnerable girls who end up in youth centres for example. I worked in these centres and I remember that we had to really keep an eye on our girls because sometimes the houses were connected. The recruiters go to places where the girls are the most vulnerable. This is well known. Sometimes girls recruit on their behalf. This does not happen often but we are seeing it more and more. These are girls who have been victims themselves and who live in constant fear. They say they have no other choice but to recruit other girls if they do not want to be the one that is beaten up or tortured.

Even if you are an MP, you cannot really renounce your past roles. These girls still come to see me, even though I am an MP. As long as I live, I will never forget this girl of about 19 whom I met not that long ago. She told me that her most painful experience occurred when she was 15 years old. She was in the back seat of a car that was taking her from Montreal to Quebec City, along with other girls, to be sexually exploited in a duplex. There was a 12-year-old girl there and she was crying.

This is a substantial problem. Street gangs are recruiting nonstop. The police officers I know tell me that as soon as these guys get out of jail, they grab their cell phones and start up again. I am talking about gang members, but let's not forget the Russian mafia, the Asian mafia or triads, in places like Vancouver, and criminal organizations. There is a lot of talk about street gangs, but transnational criminal organizations are very involved in human trafficking, whether it be international or national.

Our children are recruited at a very young age. Our young girls are exposed to certain images. They are constantly told that in order to be someone, they must walk around half naked and be beautiful. Messages like this are constantly circulating, whether it be in ads or at school, they contribute to making our girls more vulnerable. They are approached by guys who are very nice and handsome, who tell them they will give them all the love that they have been deprived of. That is how they get them mixed up in these kinds of systems. No one can even say how many young female minors are currently involved in these prostitution networks.

Mothers send me emails or call me to tell me that their daughters are in the Niagara region, for example, and they beg me to help them get them out of there. These young girls believe these guys are their boyfriends. I asked one woman how old her daughter was and she said 17. When I asked her how old her daughter was when all of this started, she said 14.

I can tell you one thing: we don't need to go all the way to Thailand to see situations like this involving children. We can continue to fight and fill the gaps in the Criminal Code as much as we can, but as long as there is no real legislation on prostitution, we will never be able to tighten up all the loopholes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

You have a quick question?

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Chair, I just wanted to say to the committee that we've been hearing some testimony in the last few committees just reminding us that there are people connected to what we investigate here. Certainly whether it's street gangs recruiting children, or in this case exploiting our young children, I think it's incumbent upon us to keep those people in mind and to support legislation that will protect them.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you for the question.

Mr. Mai, for the New Democratic Party, go ahead, please.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Mourani, thank you for being with us today. I don't think we can remain indifferent to all of this, especially after hearing your stories. Human trafficking and exploitation is a subject that affects all of us. I am very pleased that we are moving forward on these questions.

I would like you to talk to us a little bit about aboriginal women. There hasn't been much talk about them, but they experience many problems like this.

You touched on the fact that prostitution needs to be dealt with. However I would like to know if the objective is to crack down only on prostitution or if this could also affect domestic workers for example, since we are talking about human trafficking.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I would say that since this bill deals with human trafficking, it also affects domestic workers. The issue is forced labour, whatever form it takes. It may be domestic work or something else. Anyone who is exploited for their work is affected by this.

Moreover, aboriginal women are very relevant to this discussion. There is a group of aboriginal women who recently took a stand in favour of abolishing prostitution. It's bothering me that I can't remember the exact name of the organization. That is unfortunate. Perhaps my colleagues have heard of them before.

You know, prostitution is based not only on unequal relations, but also on racism. Recently I heard an aboriginal woman talk about how she was raped by two white men. Forgive me for saying it like that, but that's how it was reported. During the rape, the two men said that they were raping her because she was aboriginal. Prostitution is built not only on unequal relations, but also on racism and degrading others.

It's important to mention that prostitution clients are mostly men, whom I would refer to as prostitutors. However I would like to be clear that we are talking about a minority of men, and not all men, who go to see prostitutes. Unfortunately, in many cases these men are looking to be in a position of domination and racism is involved too. So this includes Asian, Russian or Latin American women. Recently, I met some girls from Bangladesh who had just arrived in Quebec and who didn't even speak the language. They could barely speak a word of French. And they were being approached by recruiters. Indeed, these exotic women — excuse the term, but that is how they are referred to in the field — are highly sought out.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Okay, but I would like to understand something better. Do you believe that your bill is going in that very direction, that is, toward the elimination of prostitution?

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Unfortunately, no. The bill does not seek to eliminate prostitution. In my opinion, that should be addressed in a government bill. It is a major social issue. A lone member of Parliament cannot lead this crusade, even if the bill receives the support of many groups who are in favour of eliminating prostitution and who would like to see this type of bill originate in Parliament. I can tell you that I would support that wholeheartedly.

However, this bill deals with human trafficking and seeks to close the gaps concerning the trafficking of persons, and the fact remains that sexual exploitation accounts for 80% of human trafficking. So this also involves procuring.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

You spoke about the support you are receiving. I know that within Parliament, the situation is slightly different for you now. Have you received some support from the other parties? Do you feel that the other parties can help you? As you mentioned, you are a bit of a lone crusader in putting this bill forward and having it passed.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Are you referring to the bill before us?

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Yes, absolutely.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

In fact, I have been very pleased with the support I have received from all members at second reading. Ms. Smith and I are working together. When it came to the vote at second reading, I saw that the members were unanimous. I hope, and I am even very hopeful that, at third reading stage, we will all vote in favour of the bill.

In my opinion, this is a non-partisan bill. We held discussions within our party, and I said that we were here to work for the good of these victims, and not to engage in petty politics. At least, that is what we are doing on our side, I can guarantee that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Ms. Mourani.

Our next questioner is Monsieur Goguen from the Conservative Party.

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you, Ms. Mourani. I agree with you: it is non-partisan. These are absolutely horrific crimes that must be deterred, and I think that this is the direction in which your bill is going.

The bill stipulates that sentences for human trafficking and for procuring must be served consecutively. Comparatively speaking, the other offences for which the Criminal Code imposes such sentences are terrorism, acts committed by criminal organizations and acts involving firearms. I think that I already know the answer, but I will ask you the question anyway. You are raising this crime to the same level because it follows the same logic: in fact, it involves firearms and it comes under organized crime, coercion and terrorism. Am I right?

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Oh, oh!

[Robert Goguen, Conservative, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Very well, I think that gives me the answer.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

For me, that is a serious crime. I think that for all of us, around this table, that is a serious crime that deserves a harsh sentence. After having spoken with prosecutors and even police officers, I wanted to observe the following principle, which is that the judge can determine the sentence as he or she sees fit, whatever the offence concerned, be it forced labour or sexual exploitation. But as legislators, we must make it clear that these crimes are considered serious enough to call for consecutive sentences.

As for consecutive sentences, beyond the fact that the sentence must be severe enough for the crimes committed, there is the following situation, which is very important. When the victim sees that the man who assaulted her for weeks, for months, even for years, is charged and found guilty of trafficking, pimping and aggravated assault, but he only gets a three-year sentence because only the trafficking sentence is taken into account, she does not understand. This man raped her, tortured her, and she has the impression that she is nothing. She tries to reconstruct her humanity, and yet this man is only sentenced to three years in prison. There are many cases like this one.

To my knowledge, the longest sentence imposed was seven years. It was for atrocious crimes involving several victims. The victims do not understand why these men, who were charged with these crimes, are not serving an appropriate sentence. During their healing process, the victims have the impression that society is inflicting yet another injustice upon them.

It is very important not to forget that this bill is intended to give police officers and prosecutors tools, but also to give victims real justice. They are told that it is not up to them to carry the burden of proof. These men committed atrocious crimes and they will pay for them. Furthermore, if they are found guilty, the proceeds of their crimes will be taken from them. Whether it happened in Canada, between Montreal and Quebec, between Niagara Falls and Toronto, or on the way from Russia, it is all the same.

I have just been given the name of

Aboriginal Women's Action Network.

Thank you very much. The people who created this group have officially established that they want prostitution abolished, in order to protect the young girls and adult women in their communities.

Yes, you are right: the sentences that are imposed must serve as an example and the proceeds of crime must be confiscated. Victims must not be victimized yet again.

I think that the current Criminal Code will allow us to accomplish great things. I truly hope that during third reading, all of my colleagues will vote to support this bill, just as they did during second reading.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you.

Our next questioner is Madam Morin from the NDP.

Oh, that's not whose name was given to us.

Go ahead, Mr. Jacob.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Mourani, for being here with us.

Bill C-452 condemns human trafficking, which is an odious crime, and updates the Criminal Code in this regard. It can be said that, overall, it is a step in the right direction. Notwithstanding the issues raised earlier by Françoise, I would like to know if you are in favour of establishing a permanent policy against human trafficking. Indeed, without such a policy, we risk losing track of the victims. They could be forgotten.

On another note, we spoke a bit about aboriginal people, first nations, the Inuit and Métis who are particularly affected by this problem and who wish to actively participate in fighting human trafficking. The funding reserved for aboriginal women was reduced by the Conservatives. In spite of that, do you want to include aboriginal people from throughout Canada in your bill?

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Could you clarify your question? All aboriginal people are affected, this affects all human beings who live in Canada.