Justice Committee on April 29th, 2013

[Insp Gordon Perrier]

In my experience with organized crime files, very often the judges and justices come out with a very long explanation as to how the sentence is computed. At the end of the day, I believe they come out with just sentences, taking into account all the facts. I think this still allows them that latitude, and still speaks to those who are being victimized.

[Det Sgt Dominic Monchamp]

I won't give you a personal answer but I can speak to our experience in terms of minimum sentences. Even when minimum sentences are imposed, it is always possible to avoid them. If it doesn't happen through a judge, it can happen through negotiation or by reducing charges.

In other words, it is possible. Regardless of the solution we end up with, it will be interesting to see how you are going to avoid that kind of situation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

You have a minute.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Great.

In respect of drug offences, police officers have come to this committee and said that it's sort of the usual suspects. It's the same people that they come across over and over again, with respect to these crimes. Do you find it's the same with these offences?

[Insp Gordon Perrier]

Certainly, there are some people who are predominant, who are on your radar screen.

In Winnipeg, we have a very large migrant population. We have a lot of people coming through the city. We have a lot of people immigrating to Winnipeg right now. That's very dynamic. There's lots we don't know. We hear of things peripherally, especially from new Canadians, about exploitation, forced marriage, sex services for money, and participation in other crimes. There's a lot we don't know about that. There are certainly people we know a lot about. We know a lot about them, because a lot of times we've been investigating them for organized crime.

Previously, human trafficking, to be honest, wasn't the largest priority in the police department, but it certainly is now. We realize that it needs to be upfront and that it really is the core of what we are. We're talking about people and their entire lives. You can get over an addiction, but you probably do not get over being raped.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much.

Thank you for the questions. Thank you for the answers.

Our next questioner is Madame Morin from the New Democratic Party.

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I didn't have an opportunity to ask a question on the first round so I would like to begin by saying that I think this is a very interesting bill. It's important to talk about it because so few people in Canada really know what human trafficking is. We need to talk about it because it's happening here. I have always thought it's a bit unfortunate that we only talk about the sexual exploitation aspect because human trafficking is a much larger issue.

I do a lot of work with the organization called PINAY, in Montreal, which works towards the prevention of trafficking in caregivers. I think we often forget to talk about that aspect of human trafficking.

Mr. Monchamp, because your area of expertise is mainly sexual exploitation, that is what I will focus my questions on.

Two or three weeks ago, I went to the CATHII conference and I listened to your lecture. There is an image that stayed with me. I am therefore going to repeat what you said, and that is that in Montreal, you can order a woman like you can order pizza. You can choose their weight, their measurements, their age, the colour of their hair and the colour of their eyes. I was very struck by that. What is so unfortunate is that you are right.

Having read the bill, I have a better understanding of the kinds of tools it will give you, such as reverse onus and consecutive sentences. I do wonder though how that will prevent human trafficking. Of course it will deter some individuals. However, as you said, there are so few women who are willing to testify. Furthermore, even those who do testify often withdraw their testimony.

Given that we are talking about this, I would like to take the opportunity to ask you some more questions.

Are there other tools that we could have given you to better help you find victims and have them testify? My question is also for you, Mr. Perrier.

Are there any other amendments that could be made to this bill in order to help you in your investigations?

[Det Sgt Dominic Monchamp]

First of all, I would like to emphasize that this bill is useful because, as I said, the main concern of victims is their safety. As a matter of fact, in the vast majority of cases, when the victims testify 5, 6 or 15 times in court and it all ends with a 5-year prison sentence—which is a stiff sentence, by the way, for human trafficking—if you ask them if they would do it again, they say they would not. They would not do it all over again. That shows that there needs to be courtroom support. The first form of support for victims has to be before the courts.

Beyond that, and I don't know whether this can be dealt with through legislation, but in order to support the victims, there needs to be awareness-raising. We have been quite successful with that. My colleague talked about what they have done. These initiatives enable us to reach out to victims by raising awareness among our police officers, other workers and the general public. There is a desperate need for a national plan similar to what we have seen in Quebec around the issue of domestic violence, for example.

Fifty years ago, when there was domestic violence, the police did not get involved. It was not considered a crime, it was seen as a private dispute and we did not get involved in private disputes. Today, if a woman is assaulted on the street, 25 people are going to call 911 because they find that unacceptable. This evolution did not happen all by itself. It occurred as a result of campaigns to educate police officers and, above all, the general public.

The same thing goes for drunk driving. It used to be that when you were out drinking and driving, you could say cheers to other drunk drivers and it was perfectly acceptable. Nowadays, I dare anyone to try that, because people would call 911 or make a citizen's arrest.

So we need to educate people on human trafficking. It is not right that this is still going on in Montreal.

We have to look to the education of our children. That is what will enable us to connect with the victims. That will make them understand that we are there to help them, not to arrest them. As it is, they think they are committing a crime.

[Insp Gordon Perrier]

I'll comment on the other items that Dominic didn't comment on. I want to talk about domestic servitude and forced labour.

It's interesting that when we hold these public campaigns and we talk to people, they step forward and they say, “I know someone who was victim of this”. There is always somebody who comes up, or it's two, three, or four people at a time, and they bring up the domestic servitude situations. They're just unaware. They think they're just trapped and that this is a civil arrangement and that it's okay. It's like opening those floodgates, and the parallels to domestic violence are very clear when we talk about that. I'm quite sure that issue will come forward and will be something we'll have to deal with on a regular basis.

When we talk about forced labour, I was personally involved in a case involving 10 Chinese nationals who were smuggled into Canada for the purpose of growing marijuana. They were stuck on a farm in Manitoba, and they were forced to grow, harvest, package.... We seized over six tonnes of marijuana and we know that they were operating there for more than two years. That's forced labour. That's slavery.

Initially, when we looked at that investigation, it didn't even cross our radar screen because it was so many years ago. But now when we talk about that incident, we would have probably changed the whole focus of that investigation from a marijuana trafficking investigation to a slavery investigation. So it shows you where we end up when we start talking about these things and having these difficult conversations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Inspector.

From the Conservative Party we have Mr. Calkins.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Gordon and Dominic, for coming here today and testifying, and bringing your experience and your thoughts and your wisdom to this.

The first question I have stems from issues that arise in my constituency. I represent the four bands at Hobbema. They do make the news sometimes for all the wrong reasons, with some of the gang issues they have there and some unsolved murders. A lot of that issue is surrounded by the fact that everybody there knows who did it, but nobody will come forward to testify for fear of retribution or intimidation and because of the way the court system currently works.

We've made some changes when it comes to reverse onus on bail and so on, but I guess I'm asking you specifically. When you know something has happened but no one is going to testify, can you give us some concrete examples and maybe some recommendations of how we can even further strengthen either the legislation that's before us or other legislation or other parts of the Criminal Code so that we can get rid of this intimidation and this fear of retribution or at least minimize the impact that it has, so that people will come forward and tell these stories?

[Insp Gordon Perrier]

Well, that's a big question, so there's lots there.

I think a lot of what we talked about already around awareness speaks to some portions of that. But I want to share one story that really cements what you're talking about in a lot of ways.

In Winnipeg we have a very large and vibrant first nation community. There was a young girl whom I dealt with when I was in charge of our vice unit who came to Winnipeg to escape some of the things that you're talking about—violence in her family, alcoholism. She came to Winnipeg and came to a transition centre. She never before had been in the city, had always lived in a reserve setting, had never even vacationed in the city. She was an adult, but she was very naive.

Another woman, who had also been victimized and forced into prostitution, recruited her directly from that centre, and said, “Look, I too am native. I'm your friend. Come join us. Be part of our family”. She bought her things like shoes—not extravagant things, but clothes, the necessities, food. Before you know it, she's out and she's in a car and this girl is with her saying, “This doesn't come free. You're going to go out here and you're going to turn tricks and you're going to perform for men for money.” The girl chose to go back to the reserve setting because it was better than the indignity of turning tricks.

So awareness, real change around support for those basics, is so very important. That's what it gets back to: food, shelter, and safety.

[Det Sgt Dominic Monchamp]

I would like to raise another point.

This is a situation that we do in fact run up against. There are a lot of cases that involve intimidation, even at trial. This is happening at trials to this day. There is intimidation of witnesses, threats and attempts to bribe witnesses. This type of crime should be harshly punished. That is not happening right now. That is the first point I wanted to make.

The second point is that the justice system is in no way focused on the victim. Unfortunately or fortunately, this is not the place where decisions about the administration of justice are made; they are made at the provincial level. There is a whole array of improvements that need to be made, including court delays. When a case drags on for three years, that is just impossibly difficult. It is inhumane to keep that sword of Damocles dangling over the victim's head.

There is also the fact that testimony is interrupted, in other words, it does not happen all in one go. This happens a lot, because of backlogs in the courts. A victim may testify for two days and have to come back three months later to testify for two more days, and then two weeks later, and so on. It is inhumane, especially since there has already been a preliminary inquiry. Everyone knows how it works, including the victims, and they do not really want to go through all that.

We have to make our justice system focus more on victims. It is not doing that right now, but that is crucial.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much.

Our final questioner for today is from the New Democratic Party, Mr. Mai.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you very much, gentlemen, for your evidence.

As Ms. Boivin said, it gives us a much better idea of how things work out there in the real world.

Mr. Monchamp, it gave me a better understanding of how things work in terms of justice, but moreover, it made me aware of the tools you need. I am not sure if this is the right place to ask this question, but I am really glad you are here.

In my riding of Brossard—La Prairie, there is a shopping centre called Quartier DIX30, which is the subject of increasing discussion. In connection with that, a crown prosecutor told us that police officers from a number of communities used to be able to get together to set up long-term files on street gangs, but that cuts had been made to a federal program.

Have you heard of those cuts? Have you observed any impact, for example, when it comes to federal programs? I would like to have a better understanding of what is actually happening out there in the field.

[Det Sgt Dominic Monchamp]

As far as I understand it, the joint regional street gangs squad is currently dismantled. That, as far as I know, is a provincial program.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Can you briefly explain to us what the program is all about?

[Det Sgt Dominic Monchamp]

I do not know much about that program, but as far as I know, it is an investigative group made up of police forces from various regions. In your case, it would involve the Montreal, Longueuil and neighbouring police forces. The officers involved were investigating members of street gangs. This is an extremely effective approach, because it brings together the knowledge and expertise of each police force.

I should point out that these individuals know no boundaries. Only police forces set boundaries; street gangs have none. The beauty of these teams is that they are interjurisdictional, they can follow these criminals over a larger territory.

However, I must say that this type of cooperation also exists more informally among police forces. In cases of human trafficking, for example, we have no other choice, because it is all over Canada. I can tell you that we have excellent relationships with all other police forces when it comes to these investigations.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

All right.

From what I understand about this program, the funding, which came from the federal government, was not renewed, and that is why the teams were dismantled.

[Det Sgt Dominic Monchamp]

I do not know where the funding came from.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

All right.

Ms. Morin asked the question about potential tools to get people to testify. You did mention that getting people to testify was very problematic. Are you considering the videoconference option? Have you discussed that?

[Det Sgt Dominic Monchamp]

Those are tools that have been put in place and are extremely useful. We use them on a regular basis. They are all extremely important to victims.

It might not seem like much to you, but publication bans are a good example. For a victim who is involved in prostitution and who does not want her family or friends to know, it is extremely important that her name not appear in the newspapers. That is one of the first considerations, and it is automatic. So that is extremely important.

In some cases, where there are some sensitive issues, the proceedings are held in camera. The ability to testify by videolink is extremely important to victims who cannot face their predator. In some real-life cases, were it not for that, the victim would not have been able to testify. In some cases, it is physically or psychologically impossible for victims to testify.

However, it does not happen automatically. The Crown has to argue in court, against the defence, for permission to proceed by way of videolink testimony.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Inspector Perrier, you mentioned that things are changing in terms of the way we're seeing certain crimes. You mentioned that before we were targeting marijuana more, and now we're looking at slavery and things like that.

Can you expand more in terms of what has changed and why maybe law enforcement, or is it the public...? Is there anything we can do to make things change more quickly?

I know we mentioned about information and things like that, but how can things change more quickly?

[Insp Gordon Perrier]

First of all, this is a national issue when we come down to it.

I've talked about a lot of the programs and the extensive programs that exist in Winnipeg. I'm not bragging, but I do know that some of these programs have been around for a long time in our city. We did have an officer whose daughter got involved in prostitution and ended up losing her life as a result. That resonated with the membership around those programs, and how things are conducted and how they're done. It's about programming and it's about how you approach your business.

If you want to change that on a national scale, you have to have a national plan.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Okay. That's your time. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Inspector, and thank you, Sergeant, for coming here today and providing great feedback on today's bill.

I want to follow on with Monsieur Bélanger, that you are excellent representatives of your profession. We don't often get a chance to thank our police officers for the work they do in the field. We want to thank you for doing an excellent job, representing not only police officers from your respective police forces but policing in general across the country. Thank you for your efforts and your commitment to our communities.

Thank you very much for coming.

On Wednesday, we have two panels. There will be two witnesses in the first hour and two witnesses in the second hour, and we'll continue reviewing Bill C-452.

With that, the meeting is adjourned.