Justice Committee on Nov. 28th, 2013

[Marie-Josée Thivierge]

On that, I'd guess I'd say three things.

The first is that it's actually allowable to transfer funds—

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

I know it's allowed.

[Marie-Josée Thivierge]

—within a vote to address operational requirements. The second is that savings normally are reported when there is a reduction in the fiscal framework. For us, when we report savings, it is because there has been a reduction on the draw on the fiscal framework.

That said, it's also important to remember that departments are allowed to carry forward and reprofile from one year to the other some unspent amount of their budgets, provided it is done within the limits and the parameters that are given to us.

Those three elements would be my way of addressing your question.

[William F. Pentney]

I have a brief supplemental response. Underlying the question is a very legitimate concern, which is, with all of the money coming and going, are there real reductions. I've been doing this job for a little over a year and I can tell you that I've signed more than 200 letters to individual staff indicating that their position is no longer in existence. We've reorganized significantly in terms of how we deliver, particularly in Marie-Josée's area, in terms of corporate support and in terms of some of the delivery of legal services. Some of those people chose to retire, and some chose to go off on education leave or otherwise, but there are real reductions happening in the department.

Related to a question that was asked earlier, in terms of what drives efficiencies, other than the program side of our department, which is almost half of our budget, the rest of our budget is operating and delivery of legal services, litigation and those sorts of things. That's all people; about 85% of that is people. About half of that is billed out to clients.

We get an appropriation from Parliament and then other departments get appropriations and we bill them. For anyone who has sent bills to clients, they know the discipline that sending.... Give or take $300 million a year for us is recovered from clients directly for hourly bills that are provided, just as in the private sector, and there is a discipline associated with doing that.

There are real reductions. We are reducing our complement—and I'm not here to complain—and we are on a downward track. By next year, we'll have reduced by 330 staff, we'll have reduced our budget by $68 million. In all of that, there will still be money coming and going out the door for program money for the aboriginal justice strategy, as an example, in these supplementaries and other programs that we talked about the last time we were here as well.

In terms of the core of our business delivering legal service, on that side there are real reductions that are happening, and we're driving efficiencies in our system.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you for those answers. I'm way past my time.

Our next questioner is from the New Democratic Party, Madame Péclet.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My thanks also go to the witnesses for joining us to answer our questions.

Mr. Pentney, first I would like to say that it would be useful if you could send us the information on the various communities using the program, as you suggested. As we know, the objective has been surpassed. We should know exactly how the budget is distributed. So it would be very useful if you sent us that information.

[William F. Pentney]

It will be my pleasure.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you very much. That is very kind of you.

The supplementary estimates include grants and contributions totalling $9.8 million. That is vote 5b.

An additional amount of $1.1 million is also included for the Aboriginal Justice Strategy, in vote 1b.

Could you tell us what is included in the additional $1.1 million? What is that amount for exactly?

[William F. Pentney]

I will try to answer the question and Marie-Josée might like to add something.

There is a vote included for the funding earmarked for communities and provinces. Under vote 1b, funds are earmarked for the administration of those programs. Given how efficient our management of the program is, the amount for our team was reduced. The other vote is for the funds that will be directly given to the communities. That is the way it is divided.

Also, some items are not included in supplementary estimates (B). The A-base funding always goes to the department. We add about $5 million to A-base funding for program development.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

How is the $1.1 million invested in the administration of the program? Will it go to the employees?

[Marie-Josée Thivierge]

The amount basically covers the operating costs for managing the program. That may include wages or other operating costs.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Okay.

I would like to talk about the Aboriginal Justice Strategy. I am sure you will not have trouble answering this question.

There has been an increase of $10.8 million over the planned spending, the forecast. Could you tell us the reason for the $10.8 million gap between the planned spending and actual spending? I would like to know exactly how that money will be distributed.

[William F. Pentney]

The program for the Aboriginal people is projected over a five-year period. That is common in the federal system. We usually ask that sunset programs be renewed. The documents we submit to Parliament show how much money we have and the money that was approved. We are here today to request that the strategy be renewed for a year. It is difficult to explain. The funding is not new as such. We are requesting the renewal of the funding so that the program can continue for another year.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

In 2012-2013, you spent $20.7 million. Now, you are asking for a $10.8 million increase because there will be a new program. Are you asking for new funding? I am not sure I really understand.

[William F. Pentney]

Perhaps I did not understand the question. This is not a new program. The same program is being renewed, extended.

[Marie-Josée Thivierge]

Perhaps I could answer this way. Basically, when the main estimates were submitted, we did not have the power to make a request for an additional $10.8 million for the program or to renew the program for a year. The budget is made up of grants and contributions, on the one hand, and operating funds, on the other hand. The supplementary estimates allow us to request, through votes, the funds we need to keep the program going for another year.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

For 2013-2014, the total amount—

[Marie-Josée Thivierge]

For 2013-2014—

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

—will it be $10.8 million? What will it be exactly?

[Marie-Josée Thivierge]

The total amount will be about $16 million. There is a basic budget and some temporary funding essentially to the tune of $11 million.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Is my time up?

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

I'll give you another turn, if you want one.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you.

Mr. Dechert.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to each of our officials for joining us here this morning.

Mr. Pentney, as you know, I was on the justice committee previously, a little over two years ago, and served in the position of parliamentary secretary for a while. I have always been very impressed with the professionalism of the Department of Justice officials. Canadians need to know what a fine job our Department of Justice officials do in helping to administer our justice system.

The minister, in his opening remarks, referred to a variance in the supplementary estimates of about $320,000. With respect, I think he said it was to an individual posted in Paris, a Canadian mission in Paris.

I previously served on the foreign affairs committee. We heard many times about the differential in cost between posting somebody known as a Canadian-based employee or staff, versus a locally hired person at any of our missions around the world.

Do you have a view on what the cost differential is between those two ways of posting people or having people at missions abroad? Can you give us some additional information about the kinds of things our justice officials do at our foreign missions abroad?