Justice Committee on Nov. 28th, 2013

[William F. Pentney]

Some of it counts for staff. I would say that over time we found that a number of employees left and took retirement, as an example, and didn't get any additional payment. A significant number we managed to place either within the department or another department, so in fact they don't get severance. They get a period of time where we help them find another job for which they are qualified.

A combination of those things means that while the staff numbers are going down, and there is a real reduction in staff, the total number of people who are leaving the public service turns out to be, in some cases, less.

One of the things the government has done, as has been done previously, is to allow a kind of job swapping between departments. As an example, if I have an existing person who wants to stay in the public service, and you in your department have somebody at the same level with the same kinds of skills who wants to retire, we can flip them around so that the retirement will happen. There is a real reduction in our department, but we have preserved as many jobs as we had.

I would say that in our department we have had more of that than had originally been anticipated.

[Matthew Kellway, NDP, Beaches—East York, ON]

Right.

To pick up a bit on Ms. Péclet's questions, last year there was spending of $20.7 million on the AJS. This year has that now dropped to $10 million?

[William F. Pentney]

No. We could perhaps have an offline conversation about that.

The funding for the aboriginal justice strategy has held relatively steady. The only change from last year to this year is that a little bit more money has been allocated to community programming and a little bit less money allocated to our internal administration. Otherwise the program has been steady.

We would be happy to try to help clarify that.

[Matthew Kellway, NDP, Beaches—East York, ON]

I'll have to try to understand the $20 million offline, then.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Mr. Kellway.

Thank you for those answers.

Our next questioner is Mr. Calkins from the Conservative Party.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

You gave a very interesting response to that last question. You found some administrative efficiencies and used the money instead on program delivery for the aboriginal justice strategy, which I think is absolutely fantastic and speaks to some good leadership at some point along the line.

The question I have for you followed along that vein. I have the privilege of representing the Maskwacis Cree, four bands at Hobbema, a fairly well known aboriginal group in Canada, sometimes for the wrong reasons. I know there are a number of issues there. I know that the leadership there, the community-based leadership and the chiefs and so on, have taken some very good steps. I believe they have had some program funding not only through the Department of Justice, but also obviously through Public Safety through the aboriginal policing directorate and so on. My questions will be along that line.

You said that a number of programs were offered. It was suggested by some at this table that not every aboriginal community in Canada benefits from that. Could you tell me if the programs through the justice strategy are push or pull programs? What I mean is that it requires an application into the program in order for the disbursement of funds. They are asking for the funds. It's not simply a matter of a per capita transfer of funding from the justice department to these first nations bands. Is that correct?

[William F. Pentney]

That is correct. There are two components to our programs.

If there is a pull in that sense, an indication of an interest, and we work with the provinces, the provinces have...and we have had people in the field visiting communities, talking about these programs, trying to raise awareness.

If there's an interest and not the capacity, where they don't have experience doing it, a limited investment can be made in helping them build that capacity so they can have an aboriginal justice worker or whatever and start a program.

In my experience, as well, often you will find people who are tremendous leaders in their own community, who are very entrepreneurial. If we could harness the energy they bring to try to define government programming, involvement of community members, and otherwise, in that sense it's very much a pull program of saying that we want this, we'll do the application, we'll build the program, and we'll sustain it through thick and thin, notwithstanding what's happening in our communities.

It isn't a per capita transfer. It wouldn't be an effective per capita transfer, because it really does rest on kind of the courage and the leadership of the people in the communities who are willing to do the day-in day-out grind work of getting those diversion programs running and sustaining them, doing the follow-up with the offenders who are in those programs, and otherwise.

It is very much not a per capita program.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

That's what I suspected and figured was the case. Obviously somebody on the ground is doing work in putting together a program proposal, finding a problem and trying to come up with a solution for it.

I'll ask you a quick series of questions and you can tie it all in.

Through the aboriginal justice program, what are the synergies with regard to the aboriginal policing directorate and Public Safety? Can you talk about the two departments? Are they working in silos, or are they working constructively and cooperatively and filling in the gaps from each other? Is there any programming through the estimates related to the hub model, which I think is being talked about quite a lot? I know that it's being implemented to a certain degree in Hobbema.

On the youth crime prevention strategy, could you explain it to me, to the rest of the committee here, and to Canadians who might be watching? Is that funding that only goes for first nations just through the aboriginal programming, or is all programming basically open for anybody who makes an application, whether they're first nations or otherwise?

[William F. Pentney]

Maybe I'll start with the last one, and then we will do a tag team on some of it.

Aboriginal justice strategy funding and other funding is not just for first nations. We provide funding to Métis communities in Alberta and elsewhere and Inuit communities in the north and off reserve. We work very closely with Public Safety.

The aboriginal justice strategy is largely supporting diversion programs. That's often police diversion. We're working very closely with all levels of policing, including the RCMP and municipal police forces, where they exist, so that there is no working in silos. There's a very close collaboration with those programs.

We also support an aboriginal court work program, which supports 180 court workers who help aboriginal accused in the court system navigate that system. We have 180 court workers supporting 450 communities through that process.

In addition, there's been a lot of concern, for example, around the issue of murdered and missing aboriginal women. That's a very important concern. There's a lot of focus and attention on that. Through our victims fund and other funds in the Department of Justice, we certainly support a range of aboriginal communities and initiatives in respect of addressing that.

There is some programming that is specifically directed towards addressing the circumstances of aboriginal offenders. There are other programs. You mentioned youth criminal justice. That's a significant transfer. Mr. Piragoff can speak about that.

[Donald Piragoff]

As Mr. Pentney indicated, there are a number of different programs trying to deal with the system holistically, both on the offender side and on the victim side.

Take, for example, the aboriginal community. Everyone talks about a disproportionate number of aboriginals as offenders. There's a disproportionate number of aboriginals as victims. In terms of violence against women, for aboriginal women and girls, their rate of victimization is three to four times higher than in a non-aboriginal population. Our programs don't discriminate. They go where the need is.

In terms of youth, our number one transfer to the provinces is youth justice programming. Our second number one transfer is legal aid. That's a straight transfer to the provinces. The provinces then use the money.

In addition to that, we also have about $4.5 million in programming that the department uses for youth justice. That includes general crime, it includes drugs, and it also includes aboriginals. Again, it's a general program, and that is a pull; those are applications.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much.

Thank you for those questions and answers.

That concludes our discussion with the officials.

I want to thank each and every one of you for coming today and for providing the answers.

I appreciate the in-depth questions from committee on estimates. That hasn't always been the case in my experience.

Before we go in camera, we should vote on the supplementary estimates as a committee, which sends them back to the House after we've reviewed them.

I'll take a motion, shall votes 1b, 5b, 35b and 50b under Justice carry? Is it on division, or is everybody in favour?

Mr. Casey.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Mr. Chair, can we speak to the motion?

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

You certainly can.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Mr. Chair, I'm quite uncomfortable with voting on vote 35b given what we heard here today. We are basically being asked to approve $3.8 million. The only witnesses we've heard from have said that they really can't talk about that, but there is someone who can. I think that for us to do a responsible job with respect to that $3.8 million, we can't vote on it until we hear something about it. There is somebody who can tell us and they're not here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thanks for that.

I'll separate 35b to allow you to vote separately. Is that okay? I'll remind you that if supplementary estimates (B) are not voted on at committee, they are deemed approved. Whether we would have time to get the prosecutor here.... I think that to have them come to talk about the issue in a future meeting would be fair.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

I appreciate what you just said. I believe it should have been automatic since the director was one part of it. We all knew it was part of it, and so we expected the people who could address the issue. I don't blame anyone.

I have my answer so I feel at ease. I just wanted to discuss a couple of things with the witness. That being said, it might be nice if they could send a little information before our next meeting. We could reserve that part and vote on it on reception on Tuesday. Let's start with that at the next meeting, if everyone agrees.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

When is the committee required to report back on the supplementary estimates?

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Here's how it works. There's no actual date. It is three days prior to the last supply day. I don't know when the last supply day will be. That can vary, based on House leaders' decision-making. I'm not exactly sure, but obviously it'll be in the next week or so.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

It sounds as if it's close to observing the phases of the moon.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

Could I add something? I think the answer will be easy. Let's say it would be next Thursday, the last opposition day, because there's one left. Three days before would bring it....

As the chair said, if it's not voted on, it's deemed adopted. I think there's no problem with just leaving it as is. If we can vote on it on Tuesday, the more the merrier.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

If we don't, we don't.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

Exactly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

The deputy minister would like to answer.

[William F. Pentney]

I was going to say, Mr. Chair, that I will go back to my office and call the Director of Public Prosecutions. I'm sure they would be pleased to provide a written explanation to the question. I'm happy to undertake that.