Justice Committee on March 23rd, 2021

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Thank you.

With that, I'm out of time. You answered two of my next three questions, so I thank you very much for being so prescient.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thanks very much, Madam Findlay.

We'll now go to Mr. Maloney for six minutes.

Go ahead, sir.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair; and thank you to all the witnesses for being here.

I apologize to Mr. Hawley and to the Centre for Ethics in Sport. I'm not going to ask you questions, because I agree with everything you've said.

This bill has support from all corners. I suspect that it's going to be implemented. This is going to happen in the United States. It's going to happen in Canada. Therefore, the real issue is what this is going to look like when it gets rolled out.

I'm glad representatives from the NHL are here.

This is going to have an impact on ethics. I don't think game fixing is going to be a problem in the NHL, just by virtue of the salaries, but there are going to be different jurisdictions in the United States and different jurisdictions in Canada dealing with the implementation.

We have teams in four different provinces, and this is ultimately going to be a provincial responsibility. This is going to have an impact on where you can bet, when you can bet and how much you can bet. This is all going to be controlled by different groups.

My question to start with is whether the NHL is going to have one policy for all places.

For example, if the Toronto Maple Leafs want to allow betting in the rink but you're not allowed to have that elsewhere, are you going to allow it there? Are you going to supersede policies locally, or are you going to go with the flow in every jurisdiction?

[Conal Berberich]

Certainly the regulatory framework will take precedence. Whatever the provinces decide to do to regulate gaming within their province is something that will supersede in all senses. That is the law, and we and our clubs will follow the law.

We ourselves will develop policies and continue to evolve the existing policies to address single-event sports gaming in Canada should this bill pass. We would have to take a look at what that policy would mean in the various jurisdictions, so I wouldn't be in a position to answer the hypothetical. However, I can tell you that we will continue to have policies, and as I mentioned, evolve our existing policies to address gaming across Canada, with this bill passed, in a manner that is compliant with the regulatory framework.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Here's my concern. I interpret your answer to mean that we're going to optimize or maximize revenue here. I know teams in the NHL are already jumping on this. The Pittsburgh Penguins have already been looking into ways to capitalize on this new opportunity. It's going to happen here.

I'm concerned about taking my niece or nephew to a Toronto Maple Leafs game and their being able to walk down and instead of buying pizza, trying to talk me into getting them to place a bet on the game—and not just on the outcome of the game. I think there are a lot of aspects of this bill that people haven't thought through fully. For example, in single-event sports betting, do you anticipate at any time in the future that you will not only be able to place a bet on the winner or loser of a game, but if you're at a hockey game, will you be able to place a bet after the second period on who's going to score the winning goal?

[Keith Wachtel]

Mr. Maloney, those are all great questions.

First, I want to share that we do have policies in place that prohibit betting from terminals, kiosks and things such as that in the arena. What you have to understand is the prevalence of mobile wagering right now; it's the predominant form that is being used. In fact, New Jersey is up to close to 90% of all bets being done through a mobile handset.

What you're seeing in Pittsburgh and other venues is simply branded lounges that they're turning into what are called sports bars, with age restrictions, that are branded in allowing people to come in, but you're not able to bet in there any differently than you would use your handset if you were sitting in the arena or at home. Therefore, from that standpoint, we are not turning our venues into casinos.

Again, it depends on what the regulation is, but if mobile sports betting is part of it, that means people can bet anywhere, at any time, just by using their device.

As it relates to your question on the ability to make what you were referring to as prop bets, that is being done now. Obviously you can't look at a Super Bowl without thousands of prop bets, including how long the national anthem is going to be or who's going to win the coin toss.

We certainly think prop bets will be more relevant for our sport, as well as all other sports, but to us, that's really more about the engagement. Most of the money that is bet on sports is predominantly on the outcome of the game.

These prop bets that you see are very little handle but provide a lot of engagement. Quite frankly, we like the engagement factor. We think all of this will provide an opportunity to generate new fans for the game. We all know that whether it's gambling, but also social gaming or fantasy gaming, the likelihood for people to engage and participate in that sport is much greater.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

I'm running out of time here. I understand the revenue desire, but there's a balance to be had between revenue and protecting people.

If I understood you correctly, you said the NHL will have a blanket policy prohibiting betting at the venue but you can't stop people from doing it online on their phones, which I understand. I think that's an important distinction, and it needs to be.... Even on the prop betting, as you said, there needs to be a prohibition by the league, and it needs to be consistent throughout the league, regardless of the venue, of the jurisdiction, in my opinion.

[Conal Berberich]

If I may jump in briefly, we are going to have to evaluate what our policies would look like in a new legal regime in Canada. I don't think we could speculate for certain what those policies might be. What I can say is, using your niece and nephew as the example, I think provinces would probably follow the approach that states have taken, which is to ensure that gaming is not only not accessible to those under the legal wagering age, but it's not marketed to those under the legal wagering age—as a legal matter. We ourselves—

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Maloney.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

We'll now go to Monsieur Fortin.

You have the floor for six minutes.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to welcome all the witnesses and thank them for being here today.

This is a recurring bill, and we have been discussing it for many years in Parliament. It's always rewarding to hear the different points of view, which change from year to year and differ by sport.

My first question is for the National Hockey League officials.

I understand that you prohibit your employees from betting on elements of a game. Beyond this prohibition, what do you intend to do to prevent the manipulation of hockey games?

Many of us more or less believe that manipulation is possible. However, in my opinion, it is possible. I would like to know what you have in place to prevent this from happening.

[Conal Berberich]

I can start the presentation on behalf of the NHL on this item.

In the first place, we favour a regulatory regime that provides regulators with the types of oversight tools they would need to have to administer legalized sports wagering across Canada. I think bringing something that is underground above ground and shining a light on it is a necessary piece of this entire discussion.

We ourselves, as Keith mentioned in his opening statement, partner with an industry-leading expert at Sportradar, which has sophisticated data tools that help us monitor for ourselves, so that we can ensure the expected patterns would happen. We ourselves also partner only with licensed and regulated sports books, who themselves prioritize responsible gaming and integrity in all its forms.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

For example, if I wanted to bet on the number of checks a player would do during a game, what would prevent me from making a deal with that player by promising a bonus if he or she had a certain number of checks?

[Keith Wachtel]

First and foremost, one thing that is in all of our agreements with our sports books is that the NHL will approve all bet types. We are very careful to make sure that the bet types we include are ones that can't easily be manipulated or that aren't more subjective.

The group on the committee for ethics talked about—and this is true—the real concern in this area being more for amateur athletes who are not making millions of dollars. As we said, we take integrity very seriously. It is at the paramount of our DNA. Ultimately we really do think this is a much bigger concern for amateur athletes who, as mentioned, are not making that kind of money.

We work with the sports operators, and, quite frankly, the sports operators have just as much concern about integrity as we do. It is their lifeblood. If people don't feel that there's integrity, then they won't bet.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

What would be the penalty for a hockey team whose player or coach is found guilty of tampering with a game?

[Keith Wachtel]

I certainly don't think that Conal or I can speak to that. That's really a question for our ownership, commissioner and deputy commissioner.

I'm sure, like for other things, that they would take swift and decisive action.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

From what I understand, teams are not aware at this time of any measures that indicate this is very serious and what happens when you get caught.

There are no such measures in place currently. Is that correct?

[Conal Berberich]

We couldn't answer any question about a specific penalty. As you can tell, integrity is a paramount consideration. It's something we would take incredibly seriously.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Okay. Thank you.

As far as horse racing goes, Mr. Hawley, I understand the position. It is pretty much unanimous among the people who operate horse racing businesses. You say you need the revenue, particularly to maintain the horses and pay the jockeys. There are a lot of obligations to meet. Every time I hear that, I wonder if the situation is not somewhat the same for other sports.

Wouldn't there be a case for simply adjusting the use of revenues generated by sports betting so that expenses are well covered? In Quebec, for example, agreements could be made with Loto-Québec. In this way, a portion of the revenue generated by sports betting could be devoted to horse maintenance, stables or something else.

Wouldn't that be a reasonable solution, Mr. Hawley?

[Sandy Hawley]

Yes, sir.

We're definitely not against single sports betting. It's just a thing that we hope we can help regulate in some way.

As I mentioned, there are a number of jobs that depend on this. I mentioned a few jobs, but there are many more that I could mention. I think it's very important that there be an amendment on C-218.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

You say that horse racing should be excluded from Bill C-218. Couldn't it be included by modulating the use of revenues?

You support this approach, I understand.

[Sandy Hawley]

Yes, sir.

We actually have tremendous technology at Woodbine, and of course at racetracks across Canada. We have HorsePlayerInteractive, which is a way of betting on horses. I think that if the government would allow it, Woodbine would be a big part of Bill C-218.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Fortin.

We'll now go to Mr. Masse, who I believe is in the room.

Please go ahead. You have six minutes, sir.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

To the Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport, I think your requests are very reasonable. They would be good things to do, even outside the legislation—also within it—in terms of regulations and so forth. They may not be specifically here but should be accomplished and set as a goal. Thank you for your presentations and your commitment to these measures. It makes important strides for several reasons.

To Mr. Hawley, on the historical horse racing, it seems to me that the horse-racing industry is looking more for a revenue stream than really anything else.

I have a lot of empathy because the provincial government under McGuinty closed the Windsor raceway despite the fact that we introduced a charity casino, which actually made a profit and was doing okay. We lost all the subsequent benefits, as you mentioned.

I have empathy for you right now, jealousy even, with your being in Kentucky. It's actually a quicker drive from Windsor to Kentucky, where you are, than it is from Windsor to Ottawa.

I really have a lot of empathy, but I guess the problem is this: Would you not agree that historical racing is based on fiction and algorithms? That makes it a little bit different. You could do the same thing with historical betting on hockey, football, anything.

Perhaps that might need some more thought, and provincial regulations could offer a better path. Would you not agree that might be better? If not, what is a specific amendment that you want for C-218?

My understanding is that it would require several...and perhaps even different legislation that could actually scuttle this one. Maybe you can comment on that, please.