Justice Committee on March 23rd, 2021

[Sandy Hawley]

As I mentioned, hopefully Woodbine would be able to be a part of single sports wagering.

I know historical racing has saved horse racing here in Kentucky and a number of other jurisdictions around the United States.

I think it would be very helpful to Woodbine and a number of other racetracks across Canada. It would be a very simple thing to do. I think it would be—

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

What changes in the legislation would we need?

[Sandy Hawley]

Well, I'm not really an expert on legislation, but I think Bill C-218 includes horse racing for single sport betting.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

It actually doesn't. I've been involved in this for over 10 years. This legislation is the same as what was drafted by Joe Comartin, my colleague from Windsor—Tecumseh at that time.

In fact, I think the legislation the government introduced on this was even better and perhaps furnishes an amendment that we could look at towards bettering this legislation.

Specifically concerning historical horse racing, you're saying it's based upon a fictional race. Is that not correct?

[Sandy Hawley]

Yes, it's based on a fictional race. I think there are about 60,000 different races that they use. As I mentioned, some of mine are probably in there as well. Somebody can make a wager on the race. I'm not sure exactly how it works, but they make a [Technical difficulty—Editor] The results come up. If you happen to be lucky enough to pick the right horse, then you're a winner. It's just like betting on a live race without having to put on the show.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you for that.

I agree with you on the importance of the industry. It's more than just the betting that goes on with regard to horse racing. There's a whole culture and a whole series of things. I think it needs even more thought than this bill offers.

[Sandy Hawley]

I appreciate that. Thank you.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

You're welcome. Thank you for your testimony today. I just think that sometimes this may not be the proper vehicle, or that we could actually get better results through the provincial models too.

[Sandy Hawley]

Thank you, sir.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

If we don't do this soon, I don't know whether it's going to take another 10 years or not.

Moving quickly over to the National Hockey League, I'm really happy that you're on board. I still have letters from Gary Bettman opposing my legislation. I won't take it personally. As a goalie, I'm used to being shot at.

It's good that you changed, and I appreciate it. I think it's really important to recognize that things have changed, for various reasons. There has been betting before. We have issues related to Operation Slapshot and Rick Tocchet.

Can you highlight what you've learned over the years in terms of how to better protect the players and how to be more responsible and also on the best practices going on in the United States now? We have 17 states that have already moved towards implementing this, and others that are coming.

Perhaps you can enlighten us as to what has taken place in this regard, because I think it's really important as part of this story, and I thank you for it.

[Conal Berberich]

Could you just rephrase your question?

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

We know there have been betting issues in the States before, such as Operation Slapshot related to the Rick Tocchet affair with regard to betting. He was part of the Phoenix Coyotes at that time. A New Jersey state trooper actually went to jail for five years in this case.

Now, in subsequent years, there's betting going on in the United States, but your changed position also comes with different measures of supports and also inclusion of best practices.

Could you highlight what those best practices are to better protect the players and better protect the organizations? What has the NHL learned that can be shared over here? You're not starting from scratch on this situation in Canada.

[Conal Berberich]

That's correct.

I guess we have taken a multifaceted approach with the industry. We've examined things for ourselves in our own policies and have worked with regulators and trade groups to that end.

As to a specific best practice that I can point to, I don't know, but I can tell you that the underlying issues that you're suggesting are the types of issues we take very seriously and try to work within a collaborative model to address.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thanks, Mr. Masse.

We'll now go to our second round of questions, starting with Mr. Waugh for five minutes.

Sir, go ahead.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Welcome, guests.

I'm going to start with the Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport.

Two years ago you had a white paper in response to the international Symposium on Match Manipulation and Gambling in Sport that took place in Toronto. In fact, Paul, you were there as one of the presenters.

In two years has it come a long way? We're getting ready for the Olympics coming up in Tokyo, so let's start from when you had the white paper two years ago in Toronto. Have you worked towards a consensus, not only in this country but other countries, too, leading up to the Olympics and other sports events that may take place once we get out of this COVID?

[Paul Melia]

Thanks for the question.

I would say, as far the white paper is concerned and any traction that we've had in trying to advance the recommendations that are contained in the paper, not to overstate it, but I think what we experienced in Canada at the sport level, at the government level quite frankly was that there were so many other competing priorities for sport. This isn't a burning bush on anyone's desk, so we really can't pay attention to it unless we have a catastrophe that commands our attention.

We believe there is a catastrophe bubbling below the surface of sport, and so we have continued to work hard. Other countries have grabbed hold of this—Australia, Germany, Great Britain, Finland—where they have created integrity units in their countries. They have said that the way to address this is through one universal policy that wraps its arms around this in a legislative and regulatory way. We need confidential reporting mechanisms. We need one set of consequences that would apply to all sports. We need mandatory education that all participants would be required to take.

As was pointed out, the most vulnerable sports in our country are our national sports organizations, Olympic sports and Paralympic sports, because these individuals don't make much money, so that's where organized crime focuses their efforts. The prop betting is where they really focus their efforts, because they believe they can make innocuous agreements around a coin toss or something like that, or a double fault in the second game of the second set in tennis. The player is going to get $10,000 for doing it, and they say, “Well, I'll do that because that's not throwing the match,” but then they hook them in and they elevate their ask after that.

These athletes are very vulnerable. One universal policy—an independent integrity unit administering it, confidential reporting, a set of consequences, mandatory education—all the things we did in anti-doping, for example, could apply to the issue of match manipulation and a way to prevent it.

This bill is a real shining light in terms of getting some traction around the recommendations of the white paper, and that's why we so strongly support it.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thanks, Paul.

Mr. Shoemaker, they list 15 sports, like basketball, badminton, baseball, curling, e-sports, ice hockey even. What are your thoughts on manipulation in the Olympics?

We've seen it of course for decades, you know. Individual athletes are taking PEDs, performance enhancing drugs, and so on, and then we find out four, five or six years later when they get caught. I'd like to know your thoughts on this bill and forward to the Olympics, because amateur sports could be a target for this. We just want to know what we can do for them.

[David Shoemaker]

I actually think Olympic sport needs to be viewed through two lenses. One is competition at the Olympic games themselves, where there is a strong commitment through the IOC's code and through its association with the integrity betting intelligence system, which makes the ability to enforce and monitor the integrity of Olympic sport on a level quite similar to its ability to monitor doping. Of course, it doesn't mean it won't take place, but I think it reduces the risks and the vulnerabilities.

Olympic sport takes place on a 17-day basis every two years, winter and summer. Those sports, though, are taking place year-round, over 365 days, and there are nearly 60 Olympic sports that have competitions all the time. Today, there is an incredible amount of betting on those sports, and that's where we need a responsible approach that allows us to better protect, better educate, take the proceeds and reinvest them back into the sport system.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thanks very much, Mr. Waugh.

We'll now go to Madam Brière for five minutes.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses today.

My question is for National Hockey League officials.

In your 2014 brief on the study of Bill C-290, which is very similar to the one under consideration today, you indicated that those who bet using foreign gambling establishments or illegal bookmakers would likely continue to do so, because government-regulated casinos could never offer the same convenience or odds as foreign and illegal betting organizations.

Subsequently, you indicated that illegal betting would only exacerbate the interest of new bettors in this type of betting, who would start on legal platforms and end up on illegal ones.

Do you maintain this position, that legalizing single sports betting will ultimately only benefit illegal platforms?

[Keith Wachtel]

Thank you for the question.

As we talked about in our brief, a lot has changed certainly since 2018, let alone going back to 2014, almost a decade ago.

What we've seen, especially as multiple states have enacted legislation in the U.S., is that an unregulated market has no protections, no oversights, no safeguards, but a regulated market, the one we're talking about here with all the implementations we have put in place for integrity monitoring, for responsible gaming is actually working. It is taking money from the so-called black market and legitimizing the ability for people to wager on single game sports.

We have seen a difference. A lot of that has to do with things like technology, and the ability to make sure that all of these monitoring services are able to find any irregularities. We certainly think that a regulated market makes a lot more sense and is a much better way to enact legislation than looking at the illegal market.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you.

We know that sports gambling is addictive and that there is a lot at stake in its legalization.

Today, do you believe that this legalization will exacerbate the problem of gambling addiction in Canada?

[Conal Berberich]

Obviously, addiction is a serious issue, and we believe that a regulatory framework that provides resources for wagerers who wish to wager lawfully would provide them with an opportunity to seek tools to help themselves, if needed.

It would include a model involving sports book operators, who take the issue very seriously themselves. The model would also provide responsible gaming messaging. We have our own interest in seeing responsible gaming, and have partnered with other trade groups, like the International Center for Responsible Gaming, to work collaboratively to raise awareness for the issue, to provide educational tools, and to provide tools for those people who need to seek help.

We believe there is some data to indicate that increased sports wagering availability does not increase the incidence of addiction, so a regulated marketplace and a collaborative marketplace will provide the opportunity for help, should those people need it.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

I have one more question.

Will the Nordiques return to Quebec City?