Evidence of meeting #34 for Justice and Human Rights in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was abuse.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Patrick Fleming  Content Expert and Social Worker, Canadian Association of Social Workers
Hai Luo  Associate Professor, Faculty of Social Work, University of Manitoba, Content Expert, Canadian Association of Social Workers
Tehmina Naveed  Executive Director, Pak Pioneers Community Organization of Canada
Mathieu Robitaille  Community Intervenor, Centre d'action bénévole Saint-Jérôme, As an Individual
Marilee Nowgesic  Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Indigenous Nurses Association
Michael Villeneuve  Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Nurses Association
Miranda Ferrier  Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Support Workers Association, Canadian Nurses Association
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

Thank you, Mr. Robitaille.

We'll go back to our questions.

Madame Brière, you have six minutes. Please go ahead.

May 13th, 2021 / 11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC

Thank you, Madame Speaker.

Welcome and thank you to all our witnesses today.

I'll direct my question to Mr. Fleming and Mrs. Luo.

Thank you very much for all the work you are doing, particularly during COVID-19. You work closely with seniors and more vulnerable persons, and we very much appreciate it.

Earlier you talked about working in partnership with occupational therapists, nurses and doctors, for example.

How could the effectiveness of those partnerships be improved? What might help you improve those mutualistic relationships?

11:35 a.m.

Content Expert and Social Worker, Canadian Association of Social Workers

Patrick Fleming

I'll take a moment to respond to that and use this as an example of how collaboration has happened. Our local elder abuse network in London, Ontario, played a significant role in moving London forward, about six or seven years ago, to become an age-friendly city.

That process, and continued process, is an example of where multiple individuals, older adults themselves, community members, neighbourhoods, agencies, health care agencies and social service agencies came together and have really worked on a variety of pillars, including housing, transportation, health, social services, income, and so on, in trying to find ways of agencies working more closely together, responding collectively and giving the lead to older adults to let us know in a community what their needs are. Certainly we still have a long way to go, but that is an example of how collaborative work can occur.

As an example, during COVID, we were able to get one of our agencies, the Canadian Mental Health Association, to set up a friendly support line to call out to older adults who were indicating that they were feeling increasingly isolated and have friendly calling connecting to them over the telephone, which is at least a piece of technology that the vast majority of older adults do have and are able to operate. That's an example where community collaboration, agency networking and working together can work.

The challenge is that all of that has been done voluntarily and really without any dollars connected to it at all. That shows the commitment of communities across the country that wish to respond to this. Realistically, volunteer work and that sort of networking can only go so far before more formal interventive resources and the capacity to assess and review elder abuse situations need to be in place.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC

Thank you.

With regard to your remarks, earlier we talked about data collection, and Mr. Cooper asked a question about that. Under the 2021 budget, a great deal of funding is allocated to Statistics Canada for data collection.

What subjects or fields should we focus on so we can collect better data to help us improve the situation of our seniors?

11:35 a.m.

Prof. Hai Luo

I think this question is better answered by a group of experts. With this being such a brief meeting, we're here serving as content experts. I think a group of multidisciplinary experts should be gathered together to contribute to this idea.

Actually, I know that experts, scholars, in different universities in different provinces have been working on these issues. Without federal funding and a national strategy, it doesn't mean that the researchers have stopped working. They are doing their work.

It would be better to direct it to a group of experts.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC

Thank you.

Do you think we should add to or amend the Criminal Code to ensure we accurately target protection for seniors?

Earlier you said you weren't a legal expert, but you probably have ideas on the subject given your experience in the field.

11:40 a.m.

Content Expert and Social Worker, Canadian Association of Social Workers

Patrick Fleming

Again, I'm going to speak in a regional manner.

In the province of Ontario, as an example, there is no adult protection legislation, and I appreciate that it's a provincial level, not a federal level. What it does indicate is that there is no capacity through law, through legislation to then set up agencies that can actually go out and assess and respond to potential elder abuse situations. Even under the Criminal Code, it needs more than just the police to investigate these situations.

It really, then, needs to bring in social and health care agencies. Most often these issues are multi-levelled. There are financial issues. There are relational issues within families. There may be addiction-related health issues. Because of this, we need to have it be more than just the law, itself. We need to be looking at the determinants of health.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Iqra Khalid

Thank you, Madame Brière.

We'll now go to Monsieur Fortin.

Mr. Fortin, you have the floor for six minutes.

11:40 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My questions are for Mr. Robitaille, but first I want to thank all the witnesses for being with us. It's always helpful to be informed on what is happening in the field before we make decisions on these matters.

Mr. Robitaille, you are a community intervenor at the Centre d'action bénévole Saint-Jérôme, in the Laurentians, in my riding, which is the most beautiful riding in Quebec and, of course, in Canada. I am very pleased to welcome you here today.

In your opening remarks, you spoke at length about economic abuse, but there are various types of abuse. We're still trying to determine clearly what abuse means. We talk about physical abuse, which is the most obvious, psychological abuse, negligence—yes, we are often very negligent with our seniors—and economic abuse, which you discussed and which is indeed important.

I'd like you to tell us about other types of abuse. Do you think physical abuse is a major concern on a day-to-day basis in the regions, in the Laurentians, or are economic issues more so?

11:40 a.m.

Community Intervenor, Centre d'action bénévole Saint-Jérôme, As an Individual

Mathieu Robitaille

Yes, physical abuse is a major concern, but I'm somewhat less exposed to it in my practice. I've nevertheless seen it.

As an example, I can cite a situation associated with one of my cases. It involved a person who was being neglected and abused by her granddaughter. The family history was very complicated and involved crime and other issues. The woman couldn't report her granddaughter, first of all, as a result of her emotional tie to her, but also because her granddaughter was virtually the only family member she was in touch with.

11:40 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

What should be done in those kinds of situations? That's a good example. We've often wondered what should be done when that kind of relationship exists and the older adult doesn't necessarily want to make it a criminal matter.

What do you think would be the right way to handle that kind of situation?

11:40 a.m.

Community Intervenor, Centre d'action bénévole Saint-Jérôme, As an Individual

Mathieu Robitaille

I consider that situation very problematic. What I see in my practice leads me to the conclusion that the problem won't be solved solely by constantly turning these situations into criminal matters. I think legal measures have to be maintained, but you can try many other solutions before coming round to that one.

That being said, when the situation goes beyond a certain point, I realize that measures should be taken to protect people in spite of themselves.

11:40 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

I don't mean to rush you, but we have very little time.

Do you have any ideas on the subject?

11:40 a.m.

Community Intervenor, Centre d'action bénévole Saint-Jérôme, As an Individual

Mathieu Robitaille

You can organize supervised meetings. In financial management cases, some people can be managed. We hear about people who are visited by a child or grandchild on the first of the month because that's the day they get their cheques. Measures can be taken. They may mitigate the problem without necessarily solving it completely.

There are also services that can help prevent these kinds of problems.

11:45 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

What kind of services are those?

11:45 a.m.

Community Intervenor, Centre d'action bénévole Saint-Jérôme, As an Individual

Mathieu Robitaille

It could be homecare, for example.

Some caregivers abuse the situations of the people they help. Establishing a homecare service, a housekeeping service in particular, would reduce the influence a caregiver might exercise over the person.

11:45 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Now I'd like to go back to economic problems.

I heard what you said on the subject. If my understanding is correct, you said that, based on your experience, older adults are less capable than the average person of completing forms, in particular. You said there are always two or three steps to complete, at the federal, provincial and, often, municipal levels.

Isn't there an organizational problem involved in assisting seniors whose situation is different from that of the average population?

Am I mistaken in saying that?

11:45 a.m.

Community Intervenor, Centre d'action bénévole Saint-Jérôme, As an Individual

Mathieu Robitaille

No, you aren't mistaken.

I think that's part of the solution.

I'm going to describe a situation that I experienced with the Canada Revenue Agency.

We're involved in the community volunteer tax program. A CRA employee called to tell me about the situation of a senior who was trying to file his tax returns for the previous 10 years. According to the calculations, the man owed $10,000. However, he didn't know how to go about filing. So I was asked if we could help him, and I answered that we could. In the end, we managed to reduce the amount from $10,000 to $5,000.

11:45 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

What kind of service can help assist seniors in navigating the public service and departments?

11:45 a.m.

Community Intervenor, Centre d'action bénévole Saint-Jérôme, As an Individual

Mathieu Robitaille

At the provincial level, there are all the services of the CLSCs and the CLSC social workers, for example.

At the federal level, it depends on what can be done. The Canada Revenue Agency has a good database of volunteers ready to help people complete their tax returns. The agent I mentioned a moment ago took the initiative of contacting us to help that man, which is very good. We can help people.

People will be less vulnerable if you try to understand their situations before denying them access to services. Other initiatives can thus be taken before they're denied that access.

11:45 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Is there some sort of network that assists people in the Laurentians who are being physically abused?

11:45 a.m.

Community Intervenor, Centre d'action bénévole Saint-Jérôme, As an Individual

Mathieu Robitaille

Yes, there's the Ligne Aide Abus Aînés. There are community workers whose job is to identify vulnerable seniors, for example; we're also people who can be contacted. There are employees of the CLSCs and community agencies. There's Vigil’Ange, and I believe the committee recently heard from the representatives of that network. There are also other agencies on the ground to help…

11:45 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Yes, we've met the representatives of Vigil'Ange.

Is that enough? Do you think we can improve the basket of services?

Your answer will have to be brief, Mr. Robitaille.

11:45 a.m.

Community Intervenor, Centre d'action bénévole Saint-Jérôme, As an Individual

Mathieu Robitaille

The basket of services can definitely be improved.

11:45 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Thank you.