Justice Committee on Oct. 28th, 2025

[Andrew Lawton, Conservative, Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON]

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here.

To the Bests, I cannot convey enough how deeply sorry I am for your loss and that the system failed your family and your daughter so much.

Ms. Dunn, I'd like to start with you. By way of disclosure, my wife sits on the board of your organization, so I'm very familiar with the work. We've been supporters since long before then, so thank you for your advocacy on this.

We heard Marc Roskamp, the St. Thomas police chief, before this committee in another session. He said that 58% of those charged in St. Thomas with offences related to intimate partner violence are repeat offenders, and many of those are on bail.

You deal with the victims of this. Does a stat like that surprise you, or does that conform with what you understand about the perpetrators of intimate partner violence?

[Jennifer Dunn]

That goes right in line with what we see here on the ground. What is maybe even more important to mention is that this doesn't necessarily include all of the women who choose not to report to police.

The numbers are not shocking, and StatsCan put out a report—a report just came out today—showing that, between 2018 and 2024, IPV charges were up by 17%. That statistic is not shocking either, because we are busier than ever. In the past year, we've had over 10,000 service interactions at our tiny little organization here in London, Ontario.

[Andrew Lawton, Conservative, Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON]

There is a Conservative bill before the House of Commons that would treat the murder of a current or former intimate partner as first-degree murder, regardless of whether it was planned or deliberate. It would also create new specific Criminal Code offences for assault of an intimate partner and criminal harassment of an intimate partner. Would these measures be ones you would encourage the House to pass?

[Jennifer Dunn]

Absolutely, I would. I think we need to look at those types of crimes individually. When we're looking at intimate partner violence, it is very much a gendered issue, and violence against women is not on a decline. I think it's very important to look at any type of law or legislation that can support ending violence against women.

[Andrew Lawton, Conservative, Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON]

In your initial testimony, Ms. Dunn, you mentioned the trauma and pain that offenders' being released on bail causes to women, and you said the victims oftentimes have to move. What is the process of these bail hearings like? In your experience, does it respect the women who are dealing with trauma and dealing with these offences?

[Jennifer Dunn]

Absolutely not. We have had women who refused to call the justice system the justice system anymore. They call it the legal system, because they feel as though they are not seeing enough justice being done. It is very much a problem when bail is granted and women are not informed or it is difficult for them to find out what's happening next. That's an ongoing issue. Organizations like ours are so thankful to have such amazing community partners here in London, Ontario. We can work together to support women who have been subjected to this type of violence and who are involved in the criminal justice system through no fault of their own to navigate that and figure out what is happening next, because sometimes, as I said, it's very difficult to get information.

[Andrew Lawton, Conservative, Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON]

Thank you.

Moving to you, Mr. Morton, we have heard in previous testimony a concern that there is this wide gap between legal theory and experiences on the ground—the realities that your members and your colleagues have to contend with. I note that some of the Liberal witnesses come from academic backgrounds and have never even spoken to victims as part of their research; they are solely focused on the rights of the accused.

What is the danger of that way of approaching criminal law?

[Jeremy Morton]

Again, the danger with regard to that is that we are putting the offender's rights above those of the families and victims of these serious and violent crimes that are happening, and we are not taking a fulsome approach to reviewing what needs to be changed or what should be considered to be changed moving forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Thank you.

Wade, you have five minutes.

[Wade Chang, Liberal, Burnaby Central, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. and Mrs. Best, we are very sorry for your loss. I offer my sincere condolences to you and your family.

My first question is for Ms. Dunn.

In your work with survivors, how often do you see cases where violent partners end up reoffending while on bail?

[Jennifer Dunn]

We see it all the time. In the one example I gave where we were working with a woman whose mother was the surety for the perpetrator, that was not a good situation for the woman who was accessing service here. As I said in my speaking notes, the woman could not even access our service without a safety plan. It was difficult for her to come to a service like the kind our organization provides.

We see this time and time again. For example, when I told the staff that I was going to be appearing before all of you, numerous staff members wanted to share stories with me to bring forward, so this is not an unusual circumstance for us.

[Wade Chang, Liberal, Burnaby Central, BC]

Thank you.

In your experience, what is the best way for the justice system to protect victims while still being fair to the accused?

[Jennifer Dunn]

We think it's very important for the system to work. As much as they can right now, in the way the system is structured with a trauma- and violence-informed lens and with a trauma- and violence-informed approach, I think it's really important to look at what targeted accountability could look like.

You all have a very big job to do. We need to see high-risk, repeat violent offenders face detention, but we have to remember that this is not “one size fits all”. We really have to recognize that without the proper implementation in place, it's simply not going to work. Everybody has to work together in order for it to work properly.

What I mean is this. If there is a woman on the other side of what an accused is going through with the criminal justice system, she needs to be informed every single step of the way. There needs to be accountability from the criminal justice system in that regard as well, not just for the accused. Victims have rights as well, and it's really important for those to be considered every step of the way.

[Wade Chang, Liberal, Burnaby Central, BC]

Thank you.

From your perspective, how would making it harder to get bail help keep women and families safe?

[Jennifer Dunn]

When a violent offender has been released on bail, women are constantly fearing for either their lives or their safety. They cannot leave their homes without fear. They are constantly looking over their shoulders to see what's going to happen next. It's very difficult to live like that. Nobody should have to live like that. Just to be clear, it's very important that those types of experiences are considered when looking at changing any legislation or law.

The reality is that organizations like ours are working every single day to work ourselves out of a job. We don't want, in 2025, to have to provide service over 10,000 times in a year. We really need to make sure that every single system is working together to provide every opportunity for real justice.

[Wade Chang, Liberal, Burnaby Central, BC]

Thank you.

Beyond changing the law, what kind of support do we need to make sure that reforms actually keep women and families safe?

[Jennifer Dunn]

It's very important for all of the systems to work together.

As I said in my speaking notes, from the courtroom to the counselling office, we all share the responsibility to support the survivors, the victims and the families, and also the perpetrators of the violence. That comes with education, prevention and proper funding, all across the board.

[Wade Chang, Liberal, Burnaby Central, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Mr. Fortin, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am going to go back to Mr. Baxter, and I apologize to the other witnesses. It is not because they are not interesting.

Mr. Baxter, Mrs. Best told us earlier that we should perhaps add a condition concerning drug addiction or consider the drug problem when deciding whether to grant bail to an individual. I would like to know if you think that criterion should be added.

In either case, I would like to know your opinion on the bail criteria. Let me repeat them. The idea is to ensure that the person appears at their next court appearance, that they will not be a threat to public safety and that their release will not bring the administration of justice into disrepute, in other words, that the release will not undermine public confidence in the justice system.

What do you think? What conditions should be added?

[Mark Baxter]

If we are continuing to talk about repeat and violent offenders, and their drug addictions as part of that, then that becomes part of the conversation and part of the context that takes place at a bail hearing.

We have to remember that with the reforms we're talking about here, we're not talking about everyday petty theft. We're talking about the worst types of repeat offenders, who are defying rehabilitation, flagrantly running afoul of the law, and continuing to victimize our communities. That's who we're talking about. If we're looking at reverse onus criteria as to whether they should be released within those three criteria you have laid out, if they have alcohol or drug addiction issues, that's going to form part of the context that will take place in the bail hearing part of considering the factors.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

If I understand correctly what you are telling me, the three criteria to be considered before granting bail would be whether or not there was a similar previous offence, whether the crime is a violent one and whether there are drug addiction issues. Is that correct?

[Mark Baxter]

Can you repeat that?

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

If I understand correctly, the three criteria to be considered would be a drug addiction issue, a previous offence and a violent crime. Is that correct?

[Mark Baxter]

In terms of the drug addiction and whether it's considered, that's always going to be considered by a justice during a bail hearing anyway. That context is there now, whether we're talking about a reverse onus offence or not a reverse onus offence. The person's alcohol or drug addiction or dependency is going to form part of the conversation that will take place on bail.

Mental health also plays into that. We have seen times where folks are released and provided with opportunities to seek treatment and counselling.