Justice Committee on Oct. 21st, 2025

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Good afternoon, everyone. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number eight of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted earlier this year, on September 23, the committee is meeting to continue its study on bail, sentencing and the handling of repeat violent offenders.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person, which is the majority of us in the room, but there are others, particularly witnesses, who may be joining us remotely using the Zoom application.

Before we continue, I would like to ask all in-person participants to consult the guidelines written on the cards on the table. These measures are in place to help prevent audio feedback incidents and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters. You will also notice a QR code on the card, which links to a short awareness video.

I'd like to make a few comments for the benefit of witnesses, in particular. Members have heard this instruction before and are mostly complying.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking, obviously. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic and please mute yourself when you're not speaking. For those on Zoom, at the bottom of your screen—and you're probably familiar with this—you can select the appropriate channel for interpretation: floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel accordingly.

As a brief reminder, all comments should be addressed through the chair. I won't impede the dynamic dialogue back and forth between witnesses and members, but if it becomes a point of respect, I will ask people to direct questions or answers through the chair.

If members in the room wish to speak, they must raise their hand. Members participating on Zoom must use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will do our best to maintain the speaking order.

We appreciate your patience and understanding in this regard.

I want to welcome the first panel. We have a number of people with us.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Mr. Chair, were the sound tests done by those attending via Zoom, and were the results conclusive?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Yes, Mr. Fortin, the checks have been done and the results are conclusive, until proven otherwise.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

On our first panel today, for the first hour, we have, in a personal capacity, Kelly Sundberg, professor, Mount Royal University.

From the Assembly of First Nations, we have Terry Teegee, regional chief for British Columbia, who is joining us by video conference, as well as Kyrie Tristary, lead senior director.

From the City of Winnipeg, we have Scott Gillingham, mayor.

Finally, from the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, we have Matt Gemmel, executive director, policy and public affairs.

Witnesses have five minutes for their opening statements, followed by questions from the committee.

You don't have to do five minutes, but do keep it to that.

That's it for the opening round. There are some eager members today really wanting to ask you some questions, so if you have opening comments, please do so. I'll leave it up to you to do that now. Thank you.

We'll go in the order of presentation.

Kelly, you will go first, and then we'll go to Terry and Kyrie, Scott, and then Matt.

Mr. Sundberg, you have the floor.

[Kelly W. Sundberg, Professor, Mount Royal University, As an Individual]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm Kelly Sundberg. I'm a professor at Mount Royal University in Calgary, Alberta. I hold a bachelor of arts in political science, a master's in justice and public safety leadership and training, and a doctorate degree from Monash University in Australia in criminology. I also hold research positions at the University of Calgary, the University of Adelaide's faculty of law, University of East London and, more recently, St. John's University in Queens, New York. I am a former CBSA officer of 15 years, working in inland enforcement, and I also worked here in Ottawa as a senior policy officer for some time during the early 2000s.

My research and my scholarship focuses mostly on issues from street crime through to national and border security and the nexus between all of those components. With respect to my work in security and community resiliency, I represent Canada at the international standards organization before the committees regarding those two issues.

I did provide some notes, because I knew as a professor I could talk for the next 10 hours. Given five minutes is fairly limited, I did provide notes, which should be in your package, to summarize a lot of the key points I'll be making. In all regards, I do see, in looking at the last seven meetings, it's quite clear we already have some very good laws in place. The issue in my mind really comes down to how we enforce those.

When we look at the debate and the concerns of Canadians with regard to a high risk of reoffending or those who are on bail who do engage in subsequent criminal activity and breach their terms, this understandably does cause issues for Canadians. Nevertheless, it's important to note the data shows that, in fact, we put a lot of people into pretrial custody, but we do have some unfortunate incidents.

With regard to the three areas I would be open to speaking to with the members, when we think of the public, a lot of this is a communications challenge, in my view. We have a lot of narrative around the “revolving door”, and really the issue is what's on the other side of that door. When they come out, where do they go and what resources do we have?

To this end—and I'll finish it off because I know I only have five minutes and I think I'm down to four—we have to consider bail and all issues in the context that this is the criminal justice system. When we adjust one part of the system, what inevitably can happen is that there's misalignment or a lack of calibration in other sections. When we're looking at major changes to a system, we have to consider the ramifications on other parts of that system.

Thank you very much, and I look forward to your questions.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Thank you.

It's over to Regional Chief Teegee.

[Regional Chief Terry Teegee, Assembly of First Nations]

[Witness spoke in Dakelh]

[English]

First of all, I want to acknowledge that I am calling from the territory of the Dakelh people, Lheidli T’enneh.

Thank you to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights for the opportunity to speak on this very critical matter.

First of all, I want to be clear: We all want safer communities. We all grieve when we hear stories of violence, lives cut short and families torn apart. For first nations, the crisis in the justice system is not new. It is the direct outcome of generations of systemic racism, colonization and the state police system, which have criminalized our people and eroded our rights.

I won't get into the root causes, the colonial and systemic roots. We all know the issues of colonization and the ongoing impacts of colonization. Despite being only 5% of the population, we're nearly 30% of those who are incarcerated, and there is a need for upstream reform.

As with bail reform and the current system, subsection 515(1) of the Criminal Code of Canada affirms that individuals are presumed innocent until proven guilty. That liberty should not be restricted without cause, but that principle does not hold true for first nations. In practice, first nations people face a presumption of inherent guilt, not innocence. The so-called ladder principle, which requires judges to impose the least restrictive conditions, is often ignored when the accused is first nations.

Homelessness, poverty, trauma, addiction and systemic discrimination make it harder for first nations to meet bail conditions. Lacking a fixed address, surety or access to treatment become grounds for denial, not for support. Gladue principles, which require courts to consider the unique circumstances of indigenous peoples, are often dismissed or inconsistently applied. Expert reports on trauma and mental health are sometimes disregarded entirely. The result is denial of bail, longer pretrial detention and greater pressure on first nations accused to plead guilty simply to regain freedom. This is creates a cycle of criminalization that feeds overrepresenation.

At the provincial level, this is evident. Eighty per cent of those in Ontario's jails are on remand, awaiting trial and not convicted. Jail has become a default holding space for people whose real challenges stem from poverty, mental illness and substance abuse. Recent high-profile cases involving first nations offenders reoffending while on bail have prompted public calls for harsher tough-on-crime measures.

These incidents must be examined carefully and in context. Broad punitive reforms risk worsening the overrepresentation of first nations in custody rather than addressing the root causes. We know the underlying issues—trauma, poverty, inadequate housing, poor health, limited education and employment, and a lack of effective rehabilitation. These are the root causes that we must be focusing on, not political responses that further criminalize first nations people.

Certainly, the proposed changes by the Carney government, which were brought forward on October 15, introduce proposed reforms to bail, sentencing and parole, including stricter rules for repeat offenders and tough sentencing for crimes like auto theft and sexual assault. We are deeply concerned about the government's proposed legislation to tighten bail, sentencing and parole eligibility announced without consultation with first nations. These reforms threaten to erode the presumption of innocence and expand reverse-onus provisions, forcing accused persons to prove they deserve bail. For first nations, this is not new, sadly. We already know that we live under a de facto reverse-onus system. These reforms would make it worse.

While tragic cases of reoffending have rightly prompted concern, broad punitive reforms risk deepening inequities and will not address those root causes. The answer to violence is not harsher laws. Rather, it is healing, diversion, prevention and addressing the social conditions that give rise to harm.

I must reiterate, the Assembly of First Nations, the AFN, is deeply concerned over the lack of consultation with first nations leadership and our justice systems.

Certainly I'll get to what needs to be done. I really think that perhaps we must empower our first nations governance to lead on rehabilitation. Transfer ownership and control of healing lodges to first nations institutions to ensure culturally appropriate, culturally grounded, community-based approaches to healing and reintegration.

Reallocate resources to communities. Redirect federal correctional funding to first nations governments and organizations, enabling them to design and deliver justice services that reflect their unique needs and strengths.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Regional Chief Teegee, if you could just briefly sum up, the time is at five minutes.

[Regional Chief Terry Teegee]

I'll get to the last two.

Advance first nations-led justice reform. Collaborate with first nations to codevelop a distinctions-based national indigenous decarceration strategy. Implement the “Ten Years Since Spirit Matters” recommendations, and provide sustained funding.

With regard to diversion and restorative justice, expand culturally appropriate diversion programs and restorative justice initiatives led by first nations.

What we're trying to get to is the root cause. Rather than dealing with a symptom, deal with a disease.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Thank you, Regional Chief.

Members will have the opportunity to go deeper into your presentation, if they so choose, with their time—as well as ask Ms. Tristary questions, if you share your time.

Now I'll turn the floor over to Mayor Gillingham.

[Scott Gillingham, Mayor, City of Winnipeg]

Thank you, Chair Miller, members of Parliament, fellow witnesses, for the invitation to be here today.

I'm proud to serve as mayor of a city with over 850,000 great people, with a great history and great prospects. However, Winnipeg also faces real challenges. Poverty has been concentrated in the same neighbourhoods for over a century, so predators can easily target vulnerable people.

Winnipeg is a strategic rail, road and air hub, making us a convenient transshipment point for organized crime to traffic drugs, weapons, stolen goods and people. For too many years, Winnipeg has also been a violent crime capital. With the right laws and the right strategies, I know we can change that. I know because in the mid-2000s, Winnipeg was North America's auto-theft capital. Governments, police and criminologists worked together to match preventative measures with enforcement targeted at repeat offenders, and we slashed auto-theft rates by 80%.

Winnipeg's new chief of police is Gene Bowers, and he is leading the police service to embrace that same kind of thinking. Winnipeg is a partner with Premier Kinew's government on social and enforcement initiatives to prevent crime. However, in the absence of bail reform, Winnipeg cannot do what we did for auto theft in the late 2000s.

In May of 2023, at my request, the Winnipeg Police Service relaunched a joint warrant unit with the RCMP to target the highest-priority violent offenders. For two years, they have been making an arrest every day on average. However, they're arresting and rearresting the same people.

Four out of five violent offenders arrested by this unit were free on bail, parole or probation. Almost one in five were arrested by this unit more than once. Frontline staff in health care, transit, emergency services and retail are fed up with the threats and attacks from the same familiar individuals day after day.

Bail status isn't always mentioned in police press releases after an arrest, so recently I asked Chief Bowers to provide me with actual cases where repeat offenders were convicted of serious crimes committed while on bail. On September 9, I pledged to release a weekly bulletin on these cases until effective legislation is put in place. So far, I've released two assaults on bail, one attempted homicide on bail and two homicide on bail cases.

In September alone, other bail tragedies unfolded in Winnipeg, including the mass stabbing at Hollow Water First Nation by a man released on bail from a Winnipeg court and the sentencing of an offender who stabbed a man to death in a bus shelter last winter while on bail.

We can do more in Winnipeg and we will.

However, Parliament must offer Canadians decisive help. Parliament can legislate to put public safety at the foreground of bail decisions. Parliament can reform statutory release laws so that offenders are more likely to serve a full sentence for any serious breach of conditions. Parliament can support rehabilitation investments to better break the habit of crime. You can ensure that an offender's prior history of disregard for release conditions is considered before awarding bail with new conditions.

Finally, I'll note that a recent article in a Winnipeg newspaper argued that there is no clear statistical evidence that the bail system is broken. In one sense, I agree. Not enough data is collected and publicly reported. I can only offer a steady stream of individual, actual cases to prove convicted offenders are killing, wounding or victimizing people while on bail.

There's a national wrongful-conviction registry and governments rightly compensate the wrongfully convicted, but our justice system doesn't even acknowledge the moral possibility that releasing habitual criminals to reoffend could be considered wrongful bail. We can't operate as if the victims of preventable crimes by known offenders are just collateral damage to the fairness of our justice system. We need better data on crimes committed while on bail and that data needs to be publicized. We need more transparency to help enforce bail conditions.

In conclusion, we've heard from the federal government that the legislation, much of what I'm asking for here, is imminent. If so, it can't come soon enough. I know I'm speaking with the support of my mayoral colleagues across Canada, certainly across Manitoba, including Mayor Jeff Fawcett of Brandon, Mayor Sharilyn Knox of Portage la Prairie, and Councillor Kathy Valentino, president of the Association of Manitoba Municipalities.

Members of Parliament, we need your help to make Winnipeg a safer city. We need your help to make all communities across this great nation safer for everyone.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Thank you.

Next, we have Matt.

[Matt Gemmel, Executive Director, Policy and Public Affairs, Federation of Canadian Municipalities]

Thanks, Chairman Miller.

Good afternoon, everyone.

Thank you to the committee for the invitation to the Federation of Canadian Municipalities.

I want to thank all the members of the committee for prioritizing the study on this important topic. I know this issue is playing out at the local levels in all of your committees. I also want to acknowledge that we have members of the committee who have been elected locally at the municipal level and who understand the realities of municipalities and municipal law enforcement.

I also want to thank Mayor Gillingham for travelling here to Ottawa from Winnipeg to be here today. Mayor Gillingham also served as the vice-chair of FCM's big city mayors' caucus.

Across Canada, municipalities are seeing the same concerning pattern. Individuals with a history of violent offences are being released on bail and committing new offences shortly after. Police services report rearresting the same individuals again and again.

This cycle puts enormous pressure on municipal resources.

It diverts local police from other urgent calls, increases pressure on emergency responders and stretches the capacity of limited community services. Ultimately, it leaves residents feeling less safe in their communities.

I want the committee to know that these concerns are being felt in communities across the country, large and small, from the GTA and metro Vancouver to smaller communities like North Battleford, Saskatchewan, or Portage la Prairie, Manitoba. This issue is not isolated or regional. It's national in scope.

Municipalities respect that bail is a constitutional right and that the justice system must uphold the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the principle of judicial independence. We also recognize, as we've heard today already, the historical overrepresentation of specific groups, including indigenous peoples, in the criminal justice system. However, from the municipal perspective, it's clear that the current bail system and its application are not working as intended and are failing Canadians.

FCM is recommending five steps to improve community safety outcomes.

First, strengthen the Criminal Code for violent repeat offenders. Amendments to bail and sentencing provisions should make it harder for violent high-risk repeat offenders to be released. FCM welcomes the federal government's plan to introduce bail reform legislation later this week, and we look forward to reviewing that.

The Federation of Canadian Municipalities also emphasizes that this reform must take into account the reality on the ground for municipalities and police services.

The proposed changes must be paired with the funding, enforcement tools and training needed to ensure consistent implementation across jurisdictions.

The second step involves increased capacity for the justice system, as we've already heard today. Court backlogs and limited judicial resources increase the risk that bail decisions are made without full consideration of public safety. Expanding judicial and prosecutorial capacity is essential to ensuring that bail hearings proceed in a timely way and that decisions are based on evidence and risk rather than on delay or default.

Third, Canada needs better national data and information sharing. Public safety depends on the ability to track offenders across jurisdictions. A national program is needed to collect, analyze and share bail-related data with relevant officials, including compliance rates and reoffending patterns, to ensure that individuals charged in one province are not reoffending in another and treated as first-time offenders.

Fourth, we must improve bail enforcement practices. Enforcement of bail conditions varies widely across the country, which can lead to uneven results and weaken public confidence. FCM, following recommendations by the National Police Federation, is calling for a national study to identify effective enforcement models and tools, and for the federal government to provide the guidance and resources needed to ensure these proven practices are adopted in communities of all sizes and in all regions of the country.

Lastly, as we've already heard today from one of the witnesses, we need to address the factors and the root causes that drive repeat offending. Many individuals who repeatedly come into contact with the justice system are often dealing with mental illness, addiction or unstable housing. Targeted federal investments in mental health and addiction services, supportive housing and community-based crime prevention initiatives, including indigenous-led crime prevention initiatives, are needed to break this cycle while relieving pressure on police and emergency responders.

In closing, municipalities want to see bail reform improve safety in real terms. Strengthening the Criminal Code is critical, but it must be matched with increased resources for the justice system and frontline tools for our police officers to make these changes work in practice. Municipalities are ready to partner in this effort.

Thank you. I look forward to the discussion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Thank you.

We're going until five o'clock on this panel, so we have a little over an hour and five minutes. We'll probably get well into, if not complete, the third round.

I'll announce the first two. As before, it's six minutes for the first round, and then five minutes for the second, with the exception of the Bloc Québécois, which gets two and a half minutes.

We'll start off with MP Lawton, then MP Maloney and then Monsieur Fortin. In the second round it's five minutes, with two and a half minutes for Monsieur Fortin. It will go MP Brock, MP Dhillon, MP Fortin, MP Baber and MP Lattanzio.

We start off with you, Andrew.

[Andrew Lawton, Conservative, Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON]

Thank you to all of the witnesses for taking the time to be with us today.

I'd like to start with you, Mayor Gillingham. You alluded to this in your opening remarks: Explain this bulletin you've had to start doing for repeat offenders, please.

[Scott Gillingham]

I've been sharing actual historical cases so as not to jeopardize any matters that would be currently before the courts. So far I've released five of them. The information is taken.... We're being assisted right now by the Winnipeg Police Service with information on historical cases.

As I said a moment ago, so far, of the five cases I've shared, they're all cases where people have breached their court orders and gone on to commit violent crime. In the first one I released, the final charge that lead to a conviction was a carjacking with a firearm assault. That individual had 24 prior violent offences and had breached court orders 12 times. Another individual, convicted finally of homicide, was convicted of eight prior violent offences with nine failures to comply.

These are cases where individuals had been repeatedly granted bail and, while they were out on bail, they were committing more and more crime. From my point of view as mayor of Winnipeg, we need to continue with other mayors to call for the kinds of changes that will prevent that from happening in order to protect individuals, businesses and community members from that kind of repeat violence by individuals who have a history of disregarding their bail conditions.

That is at the heart of what I'm hoping we see changed in the upcoming legislation.

[Andrew Lawton, Conservative, Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON]

You've been speaking in your comments specifically about repeat violent offenders. You mentioned one case in Manitoba at the Hollow Water reservation. Someone who stabbed his sister and injured seven others was out on bail at the time. It was a truly horrific case.

There is also an issue with non-violent offenders who are subject to the same revolving-door bail system. I was hoping you could speak to the effect that has on public safety and on businesses. I know that this is something that's often not been spoken about by witnesses here, but it is a predictor of violent criminality. People who may be out on bail for repeat vandalism or arson are then arrested the next time for something violent. Is this something you're seeing in Winnipeg?

[Scott Gillingham]

We are. One of the cases that we talked about recently was that of an individual who was involved in a theft and was confronted by a security guard, and that turned violent immediately. A weapon was produced. What started as a theft turned out to be another violent incident.

When members of my community talk to me, it shows that they're losing faith in the justice system when they see the same individuals, either repeat violent offenders out on the street committing more crime or those involved in theft, over and over again. A letter to Minister Fraser was put together by Mayor Knox of Portage la Prairie; Mayor Fawcett of Brandon, Manitoba; Kathy Valentino, the head of the Association of Manitoba Municipalities; and me. We said to Minister Fraser that we can't ignore the small things, because the small things become the big things if left unchecked.

I am all for diversion. I'm absolutely for rehabilitation, but when there are violent incidents, we need to use all tools possible to separate the perpetrators from their potential victims. For those who have a history of disregarding their court orders who we think will go on to likely or quite possibly repeat a violent offence, we have to use whatever tools possible to separate those individuals from the public.

[Andrew Lawton, Conservative, Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Gemmel, you mentioned that this is a national issue. This tracks with what I've been hearing. There is no city, town or community that is unaffected by this in any province, be it northern, southern, French, English, large, small, urban or rural. You said very clearly that it's a national problem.

The Liberal members on this committee have been trying to put a lot of the blame on provincial governments, saying that our issues are really with provinces here. You're saying that this is a national issue. You're saying that there is federal legislation that is needed to solve this bail problem.

[Matt Gemmel]

Certainly we see this issue as national in scope. FCM represents 2,100 municipal governments of all sizes in every province and territory. We are hearing about this issue from members and communities of all sizes and in all regions.

In terms of the responsibility to address this, it's clearly a shared responsibility. There's a role for the federal government and for the provinces and territories. On the policing side, there is clearly a role for municipalities. Municipalities are saying that local law enforcement have their hands tied. They're not able to address this issue without further changes to the Criminal Code and without further changes improving the capacity of the justice system at the provincial level. There is a shared responsibility there, and we are looking for leadership from the federal government.

[Andrew Lawton, Conservative, Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON]

When you hear from municipalities—of course, they're dealing with police service boards and they're dealing with police chiefs—they're drawing a line between largely, in the conversations I've had, Bill C-75 from a previous Parliament on this...and that included the principle of restraint, this idea that offenders need to be released at the earliest opportunity under the least onerous conditions.

Does the FCM support repealing the principle of restraint from the Criminal Code?

[Matt Gemmel]

FCM doesn't have a position on that specifically. Our focus has been on strengthening the Criminal Code to make it harder for repeat violent offenders to be released on bail. We don't think that's currently happening. There's evidence to suggest that it's not happening now and that changes are needed to make that more difficult.

We also think there's a role for the federal government to play in terms of gathering and compiling data and providing guidance to the provinces on best practices for making decisions on bail and monitoring bail conditions. It's a risk-based model. The approach needs to be based on the best available evidence.

[Andrew Lawton, Conservative, Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Mr. Maloney, it's over to you for six minutes.