Justice Committee on Oct. 21st, 2025

[Scott Gillingham]

Thank you for the question.

One of the things that I'm calling for on behalf of other mayors is indeed that we ensure that the offender's prior history of disregard for release conditions be considered before awarding bail with new conditions. Also, a little further, Parliament can reform statutory release laws so that offenders are more likely to serve their full sentence for any breach of conditions.

One of the aspects of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is certainly to maintain the public's confidence in the justice system.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I'm sorry, but I have to rush you because I only have 30 seconds left.

Mr. Sundberg, I'll ask you the same question. Could reversing the burden of proof be useful?

[Kelly W. Sundberg]

Yes, it would. I agree with the mayor's position. I just want to add one important component to this. We need to think of non-citizens who fall into this process also. I do think that, when we consider bail, we have to consider a number of factors. One of those is whether this individual is a citizen, a permanent resident or a visitor to our country. That is one very big issue, but it's one that I think we'd be remiss.... As we talk about the elephant in the room, this is one component that is very important, but I would agree with the mayor's position 100%.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you.

You feel that it's important. Obviously, in 30 seconds, it's not possible to delve any further.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Thank you.

Next is MP Baber for five minutes.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Mr. Sundberg, you're a professor of criminology specializing in migration and border security. Under the Liberal government, transnational gangs are finding a home in Canada.

Could you please tell us a little about how the Liberal government's border policies are responsible for bringing more drugs and gangs into Canada?

[Kelly W. Sundberg]

That's an excellent question, and thank you for asking it. One of the issues.... When we think of bail and how this nexus works, when we fail to screen those who come into our country on a temporary or a permanent basis, and when we don't have the resources to identify the possible reasonably foreseeable threat that some may pose, then we will have individuals in our country who will engage in criminality. We have a very concerning level of organized crime that has taken root in our country from coast to coast.

A lot of these, including cartels from Mexico and elsewhere, are the groups that feed on the individuals who are committing the offence. When we think of where the drugs are coming in from that these individuals, these poor people who are engaged...we have to address organized crime.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

It sounds to me like you're not just talking about border security. You're talking about the Liberal immigration policy that is responsible in part for these drugs and gangs coming into Canada.

[Kelly W. Sundberg]

Again, this is one system. When we think of criminality and we have individuals who come to our country with the intent of engaging in criminal enterprise, they are of course going to target the most vulnerable in our society. This is a tragedy for us. There is a nexus between good immigration policy, good immigration enforcement and public safety as it relates to bail—absolutely. That's why I would urge the committee to consider the notion of who is getting bail, not just the situation that got them there but whether they are a citizen, a permanent resident or a visitor. That's an important consideration.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Professor.

I want to follow up on this, because this is a study not just about bail but about sentencing as well.

[Kelly W. Sundberg]

Yes.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

I'm not sure if you're familiar with the fact that we're seeing sentencing decisions right now where judges factor in the residency or immigration status of the accused and are purposely reducing their sentences in order to help their immigration cases. I find that to be outrageous.

[Kelly W. Sundberg]

I would agree with you. I think it's foolish and it's dangerous. It's unfair.

At one point, I believe we have to consider what sovereignty and citizenship mean. I believe that when we have individuals who come to our country, it is a privilege. We are a great nation. The vast majority of those who come from abroad and live here are law-abiding, hard-working Canadians, but because of lax border security and a lack of screening, we have seen a significant criminal element that has taken hold in our country, engaging in the importation and exportation of drugs and threatening our communities.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Dr. Sundberg.

Specifically, to follow up on my point, I'm not sure if you're familiar with MP Michelle Rempel Garner's Bill C-220, which actually seeks to prescribe that a court or a judge may not consider the immigration status of the accused when sentencing and potentially lessen their sentence in order to not compromise their immigration case.

Is that something you'd be willing to support?

[Kelly W. Sundberg]

When we consider the role of non-citizens in our justice system, we have to also consider that they have the right to be presumed innocent as well.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

I'm sorry, but we're talking about sentencing. That means they already were found—

[Kelly W. Sundberg]

Once they have been sentenced, we must ensure that non-citizens who are sentenced for crimes in our country.... The Immigration and Refugee Protection Act has provisions in it already, and the important part is that we enforce those provisions.

The crazy thing is that there is no connection between the dockets in the courts in cities across our country and the immigration department, so you could have individuals who are non-citizens who are sentenced and fall through the cracks and remain in Canada.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Professor, I'm an immigrant to Canada. I immigrated to Canada 30 years ago, and I believe this citizenship to be so wonderful. It's like winning the lottery. If you have an accused who has been convicted and their sentence is potentially compromised in order to further their immigration case, I find that to be astonishing and reprehensible.

I thank you for your testimony.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

The time's up.

Ms. Lattanzio, you have five minutes.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My questions will be directed for this part to Chief Teegee.

Among the challenges facing the indigenous communities, as you highlighted in your opening remarks, are overincarceration and limited access to legal resources. We know that those are managed provincially, Chief. What changes to provincial practice or funding models would have the most immediate impact on improving the justice outcomes, according to you?

[Regional Chief Terry Teegee]

A good example is here in British Columbia. We had a lot of resourcing from the provincial and federal government, and we have 16 justice centres in and around British Columbia that help and resource a number of our first nations people, and other people, as a matter of fact, to allow them to have fair representation in the court system.

It's disappointing that I'm hearing everything I'm hearing from this committee, because, quite simply, you're talking about a lot of the issues in the context of your communities and that it's a federal, provincial and municipal issue, but it's a first nations issue too. These decisions that you're making in this room affect 634 communities and over one million people of first nations descent. You're making a decision here that is going to perhaps adversely affect our governance. It's really important—I get it. The thing is that it's not just those three levels of government. There are first nations governments that need to be involved in part of the solution.

I couldn't agree more with the comments of the professor. I could not agree more about the lack of resourcing and funding over many years. This could all have been avoided, certainly in the 10 years from 2005 to 2015 when there were massive cuts to funding from the Conservative government. There were a lot of cuts in the resources that many first nations get.

Further to that, what we need to see is more resourcing for mental health and addictions. What these justice centres do in British Columbia is allow for provisions for diversion. We can't see this revolving door. We're going to get the same result again and again. That's what these justice centres do. They help, support and allow our first nations to have the resourcing and, perhaps, even a cultural perspective on how to get out of this revolving door.

The other comment is that there is a direct relation. I know I have talked about colonization and about residential school. There is a direct relation for many of our young indigenous people from the current child care or foster care system to these jails. There's a direct pipeline for many of our people who are really vulnerable. This is why we get overincarceration rates. We're seeing it. We need more data, but I guarantee that you see it everywhere. Certainly a big part of this across the spectrum, and not just first nations, is the issue of poverty. The ongoing issue of poverty is something we're going to see more and more. Access to homes in urban centres and back in first nations communities is an ongoing issue. Some of these are issues we've seen historically in our communities, literally 10, 20, 30 and 40 years ago. You're actually dealing with some of the issues our people were dealing with.

I'm glad to finally answer some of these questions, because what you're talking about is going to affect our people. You're making decisions on our behalf, and it's going to adversely affect us.

Thank you.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Speaking of data, Chief, how important is it that the governments collect and share disaggregated data to track whether reforms are making a real difference for indigenous peoples and communities?

What do you suggest we do with the data you may have on hand or that these centres in B.C. may have on hand?

[Regional Chief Terry Teegee]

We know for sure there's an overincarceration rate. We make up 30% of the population.

Bail reform is a real knee-jerk reaction. It's not going to solve the issue. There's certainly going to be a lot of people denied bail. Perhaps more jails will be filled. What are we going to do? Are we going to become the next United States and build more jails? It's really becoming a holding place for many of our people. There's a long waiting line in the justice system for many of our people, or anybody for that matter, to get their day in court. When you're reacting and having this bail system, it's going to affect something elsewhere and it's going to put more pressure on the justice system, which is overtaxed and overburdened already.

You have to be really careful about what you're changing here. I would rather try to resolve the disease instead of the symptoms.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Thank you.

We'll have enough time for three more rounds of questions, starting with MP Gill, followed by MP Chang.

Then it will be Mr. Fortin's turn to speak. He will have two and a half minutes.

Then we will do the changeover to the next round of witnesses.

MP Gill, it's over to you.

[Amarjeet Gill, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you, everyone, for coming as witnesses.

Mayor Gillingham, in your time representing Winnipeg, would you say that the current bail system has failed cities like your own?