Evidence of meeting #8 for Justice and Human Rights in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was need.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marc Miller
It's the last thing the Bloc Québécois wants.
We don't have time for a full round for the last two members.
Mr. Baber, we'll give you two minutes and then have two minutes for Mr. Chang.
Conservative
Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON
Mr. Goldkind, in a TV appearance last week, even though we haven't seen the new Liberal bill yet, you've said that the new Liberal bill is probably going to be window dressing. Can you please tell us why?
Criminal Defence Lawyer, As an Individual
Yes, in fairness, I think that's quite possible. It doesn't touch upon the third rails, the hot-button issues that I think you have to talk about in bail. I gave some examples earlier. Until there's a real, meaningful move and the dangerousness becomes the top order of the day and the idea of harshness changes, as I've talked about, I don't think there will be a massive change in the numbers.
To end my answer—again, because of time pressures—the devil will be in the details. I can't answer that scientifically for the next five to 10 years, but if it were up to me to change the bail system, I'd be making some much more serious and harsh changes.
Conservative
Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON
I was with some Toronto police officers last week at an event. An officer in 31 Division told me that 5% of the criminals are responsible for 95% of the crime. What can we do specifically? What do you recommend we do specifically, by way of the Criminal Code, to change that?
Criminal Defence Lawyer, As an Individual
I think everything in the Criminal Code is there. There are some sections that I would have a concern about. As I said, I think justice should be blind. In certain circumstances, I think it's important to look at somebody's culture or cultural background. I think that in other circumstances, it creates a multi-tiered system.
The number one concern that I think the bail system should have is the balancing of somebody's right to reasonable bail with the idea that some people are just dangerous. No matter whether or not mommy and daddy run to court and offer to put up their house or $5,000 to $10,000, some people are just incorrigible, and they will not stop.
If the public feels that way, which I think is real, it is not inappropriate for the courts to also understand that some people—whether it's the 5% you just mentioned, or 10% or 15%—just will not abide by court orders, and there's nothing harsh or mean-spirited about saying that.
Liberal
Wade Chang Liberal Burnaby Central, BC
Madam Leclerc, based on your comparative research, are there lessons from other countries that Canada should consider as we continue assessing reforms?
Professor, Université de Montréal, Centre international de criminologie comparée, As an Individual
Yes. If we compare ourselves to other jurisdictions, especially the United States, it's easy to see that all of the very punitive reforms filled prisons but did absolutely nothing to reduce crime. I think that's worth noting. Measures that force people to do things have a lot of undesirable consequences. Consider mandatory minimum sentences, the requirement to serve sentences consecutively and the fact that certain decisions are forced.
I can give you some examples of cases we've seen. When judges disagree about mandatory minimum sentences, they start by withdrawing charges and use all kinds of circuitous strategies. They end up being unable to prevent what they set out to prevent, and the system ends up dropping people even though the reform tried to tackle these problems.
I would say it's fairly dangerous to propose limiting discretionary power. Reform has to start with conversations with people in the judicial system to make sure changes address the problems they experience every day.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marc Miller
This completes the second and third hour.
I would like to take a moment to thank you. Your testimony is very important to our study.
I wish you all a great evening. You can leave at your will. Just for the benefit of members who are here, we have a budget that was circulated to you to compensate the witnesses and continue the financial support for this study. I assume there's no objection to it, but we formally need to approve it.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marc Miller
Excellent.
There is a list of witnesses who have asked to appear. I would encourage you before the next meeting to get back to us if you want any of those witnesses to appear, and we'll schedule them for the next witness round.
Thank you very much.
Liberal
Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Mr. Chair, I don't mean to interrupt you.
Will I be getting that response in writing from the witness?