Evidence of meeting #8 for Justice and Human Rights in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was need.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marc Miller
Keep your answer brief, Ms. Leclerc, because there's not much time left.
Liberal
Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Can she send us her answer in writing, Mr. Chair?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marc Miller
Yes, that would be better, or someone else, such as Mr. Fortin, can ask her the same question.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marc Miller
I'm going to him now, actually.
Mr. Fortin, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I thank all the witnesses. We could talk about this subject for days. You're providing quality testimony that will be useful to us, so don't hesitate to send us documents. I only have two and a half minutes, and I'm already down to about a minute and a half.
Ms. Leclerc, can you talk to us about rehabilitation? After everything I've been told, I still have one question. I believe in the presumption of innocence and in rehabilitation, and I think it's important to put structures in place.
However, does our criminal justice system have enough resources in terms of both space and personnel to rehabilitate people who are in custody and to provide adequate support to those who are released?
Professor, Université de Montréal, Centre international de criminologie comparée, As an Individual
Measures are in place, but they're drastically underfunded.
A big part of the problem is that too many people are in the justice system using resources. Too many people are in prison who shouldn't necessarily be there. Here's an important statistic: 70% of prison sentences are less than six months. The system has to invest a lot of time in processing their files because it's a revolving door system, but there's very little time to work with them.
Bloc
Professor, Université de Montréal, Centre international de criminologie comparée, As an Individual
The longer the sentence, the more time can be spent working with people. At the federal level, there's a lot of time. There are programs available in prison, as well as follow-up. There are lots of mental health challenges to deal with. My colleagues also spoke at length about the fact that many offenders were previously victimized, so it's just as important to work on their traumas. That can be done in prison, but there has to be enough time to do it.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Okay.
Earlier, you talked about so-called Netflix sentences. What resources are or are not available to adequately support that kind of sentence?
Professor, Université de Montréal, Centre international de criminologie comparée, As an Individual
Resources are available. People can choose that sentence.
The fact is, a lot of people tell their lawyer they don't want that sentence because it's too harsh. The same goes for parole. One in two people turn refuse a parole hearing because they find the conditions to be too harsh.
For that kind of sentence, there should be a little less monitoring and a little more support so it can really help people.
Bloc
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
Thank you to all of the witnesses for being here today.
Ms. Owens, you mentioned earlier the importance of grounding what we do in data. We had the St. Thomas police chief here, and he said at one point that 58% of intimate partner violence in St. Thomas is perpetrated by repeat offenders. Does a number like that surprise you?
Interim Legal Director, Women's Legal Education and Action Fund
No, it doesn't. I think we see people who cause harm to others repeatedly do so.
The challenge I see is that the criminal justice system doesn't interrupt that pattern of violence in a way that other rehabilitative services might have a better shot at doing.
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
For a repeat offender, when you talk about interruption, incarceration is an interruption. Is that correct?
Interim Legal Director, Women's Legal Education and Action Fund
Incarceration is absolutely an interruption, but in the vast majority of cases, as Ms. McVicar alluded to, it is a temporary interruption. What are we doing to set victims up for safety when that person is ultimately released back into the community?
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
It's temporary because people are being released back into the community.
Interim Legal Director, Women's Legal Education and Action Fund
Yes, both at the end of a sentence or perhaps when they are released on pretrial release.
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
It would actually be safer—and I'll say for women, because, sadly, women are the majority of victims of intimate partner violence—if a repeat offender of intimate partner violence were still behind bars.
Interim Legal Director, Women's Legal Education and Action Fund
Perhaps it would in the short term, but if they don't have access to the programming and rehabilitative services they need to not reoffend, then no, because you're just releasing them back into the community in the same state they were in when they went in.
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
Thank you very much.
Mr. Goldkind, I'd like to ask you, a defence lawyer, about this. I will preface what I'm saying by pointing out that I believe strongly in the importance to our legal system and our justice system of having vigorous defence available.
I know that you have an obligation to represent your clients to the fullest extent. I believe “unmitigated zeal” is a term I've read in legal scholarship about this. I'll ask you, has it become easier for you to get your clients bail in the last 10 years?
Conservative
Andrew Lawton Conservative Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON
When you are representing clients and trying to get them bail, as a defence lawyer you appeal to the principle of restraint, do you not?
Criminal Defence Lawyer, As an Individual
I appeal to that and a number of other options available to me in the Criminal Code, based on the client, the client's background, the client's race, the client's cultural background, the client's mental health situation, the quality of the sureties and the criminal record, among very many other things, but yes, bail is one of the focuses of my practice, and I have noticed that anecdotally—obviously, I am just speaking for me—in the last decade or so.