Evidence of meeting #8 for Justice and Human Rights in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was need.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Amarjeet Gill Conservative Brampton West, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Goldkind, Canadians are seeing violent crime up 55%, gun crime up 130% and extortions up 330%. Much of this is driven by repeat offenders on bail. Where do you draw the line between protecting rights and protecting the public?
Criminal Defence Lawyer, As an Individual
Good afternoon to you.
As I said in my opening remarks, I think the balance has shifted too far one way. The public is feeling it. Most people who are in positions of elite institutions say, “Well, the public is wrong” or “They can't see what's right in front of their eyes or their ears.” I disagree with that. I think the public is onto something. I don't think it's unreasonable or harsh for a member of the public to not want to have to lock their door at night, to not want to have seven Ring cameras and six security cameras. I think the balance needs to go back somewhere towards the centre.
Right now, with regard to the bail courts, I'll say two things. One is that too many people have to wait too long to get bail. That's an answer that this committee may not like. There are certain people who should be out who have to wait two, three or four days because there are no courts or no justices. They just wait three or four days to get out, but they should have been released from the police station.
I believe your question is about somebody who's truly dangerous. When I keep hearing the term “presumed innocent”, which is a fair point—it's a great talking point—there has to be a difference, and I'll end my answer, perhaps, here. There's a difference between somebody who's presumed innocent—where the evidence against them stinks, it's “he said, she said” with no forensic evidence and they're not going to be convicted—and somebody who's presumed innocent but is on candid camera, who is on high-definition TV waving at the camera, saying, “I'm committing a crime”.
It's really important that the bail stage look at the strength of the Crown's case, not just on the tertiary ground but also at whether there is a real reason to keep this person in—a strong Crown case—because then there are also the individuals I'm concerned about, who have been in three nights too long and should be out. I think there should be more of this talked about at the bail stage.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
Thanks, Chair.
Thank you to all the witnesses for coming today. Your evidence is very helpful.
Mr. Goldkind, I have some questions for you. I've sort of followed your career, both from a legal perspective and from a political perspective, with some interest, and I thank you for being here today.
I want to talk a little bit about the principle of restraint. You said that it's been around for a long time, and it predates the 2019 legislation. How is your approach to dealing with the principle of restraint in a courtroom during a bail hearing any different now than it was before the legislation, if at all?
Criminal Defence Lawyer, As an Individual
Good afternoon, I think that's a good question.
I appreciate your kind comments. I didn't know that, so thank you.
I don't think my general courtroom approach is different. I am a bit of an attack dog. I am passionate in court. I will argue until the cows come home that somebody should be out—oftentimes, as many criminal defence lawyers do, when you know in your heart of hearts that they shouldn't.
I think your question is asking me what tools I have had more at my disposal in the last five, six, seven or 10 years—
Liberal
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
—but my question is really this. People are trying to say that this legislation imposes the principle of restraint on the court system and that it's made it easier to get out on bail. What I'm hearing you say is that your submissions in court—and probably those of your colleagues—haven't changed much because it already existed. Is that fair?
Criminal Defence Lawyer, As an Individual
I think that's fair, and the short answer is that it has simply codified—
Criminal Defence Lawyer, As an Individual
—through Parliament what was already there.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
Thank you. So, it's a red herring.
You said that you believe it's easier to get out on bail now in the last 10 or so years. Perhaps that is a trend, but there are a lot of reasons for that, wouldn't you agree with me?
Criminal Defence Lawyer, As an Individual
If you suggest some, I'm happy to say yes or no, but yes, I think that's a fair proposition.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
Well, as an example, you just mentioned how people are waiting two, three or four days to get bail hearings. You also mentioned the fact that Crown attorneys don't often seek bail review applications. One of the problems is that the provincial system, which runs the criminal justice system, is under-resourced. Isn't that right?
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
Have you ever met a Crown attorney who complained about having too many resources?
Criminal Defence Lawyer, As an Individual
I've never met anybody in the system I've worked in for two decades who will ever come here and tell you they have enough resources—period, full stop, end of story.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
Right. That applies to people in the penal system with respect to jails and it applies with respect to justices of the peace and other people who are presiding over these hearings. Isn't that right?
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
All of that factors into the problems we're now experiencing in the bail system. Is that fair?
Criminal Defence Lawyer, As an Individual
I think that's fair that everything factors in. Some things factor in more than others.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
All right. Thank you. To put all the blame in one place versus another is irresponsible. Would you agree with that too?
Criminal Defence Lawyer, As an Individual
I would never do that, because I think it would be kind of childish and intellectually dishonest. I'm all in favour of having adult conversations, but I also think those conversations should touch upon hot buttons or third rails. That's something that's very important to me. As you mentioned, you do follow what I say.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
I couldn't have put that better myself. Thank you.
There probably isn't data on this, but how often do Crown attorneys seek bail review applications?
