Justice Committee on Oct. 21st, 2025

[Scott Gillingham]

I had information from the police service just before I came to Ottawa. I'll just share that to answer your question.

In 2024, while total crime in Winnipeg decreased, the number of crimes involving a breach of bail, probation or other similar court order increased for a third year in a row. In 2024, there were 5,561 crimes involving a breach of bail, probation or other similar court orders, and that's an increase of 9% over the previous year. In the first half of 2025, actually, from January to August 2025, that upward trend continued, increasing 50% over 2024.

The number of breaches or the percentage of breaches is not going down, and I would say again what I highlighted. I campaigned on this, and when I was elected, we re-established the partnership between the Winnipeg Police Service and the RCMP for targeting repeat violent offenders in a joint arrest warrant unit. On average, they've arrested over 800 people in just over two years. On average, that's almost one arrest a day.

I'm hearing what other witnesses are saying as well: It's not just about catching people and putting them away and throwing away the key—not at all. It's also about making those investments in rehabilitation.

However, right now, repeat violent offenders who are threatening our community need to come off our streets.

[Amarjeet Gill, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

How immediate is the need for action on bail reform, in your view?

[Scott Gillingham]

It's very immediate. I think it speaks to the group of us who are here today as witnesses. It speaks to what the Prime Minister announced and signalled last week. I look forward to the legislation and the details of the legislation that are coming this week.

[Amarjeet Gill, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

In your view, has the government's hesitation to support Conservatives' bail reform proposals put political interests ahead of public safety?

[Scott Gillingham]

I'm sorry; could you repeat that, please?

[Amarjeet Gill, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

In your view, has the government's hesitation to support Conservatives' bail reform proposals put political interests ahead of public safety?

[Scott Gillingham]

We do see that the government has announced that legislative changes are coming. The opposition has been calling for legislative changes and the public has been calling for legislative changes, so I think we're at the place now where we're having this discussion, which is really important.

Bear in mind as well that too often, some of the most victimized are the most vulnerable in our community. We struggle with this, as was said a moment ago by the professor. We struggle with homelessness in our communities, with people who are struggling with addictions. Often it's those individuals and that population who are victimized by some of these individuals who continue to repeat.

My opening comment was to please put public safety at the forefront of bail decisions.

[Amarjeet Gill, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

How does the current bail system create burdens for municipalities in terms of policing, victim support and public safety?

[Kelly W. Sundberg]

The burden falls in a number of areas.

When we're not addressing the root causes, when we're not ensuring that people have the supports they need, when people are released on bail and are then left to their own devices without monitoring, without supports in place, while there needs to be an enforcement component, it's that social support that needs to be in place.

As a key point, there really are four levels of government we're talking about here, and the resources for an urban centre or a suburban centre are going to be different from what they are for a rural or northern community.

When we think of the challenges we already have in ensuring the administration of justice in our rural communities and in our north, especially within first nations communities, then when someone goes through that trajectory and they're released on bail or they're on that trajectory or they're serving their sentence in the community, it is critical that we think about the need to have healthy communities.

We have to have supports for the cities, and it can't be done in the manner that we're doing it. We've seen the disaster that resulted on the west coast. In my mind, we've seen some really dangerous laws and approaches that have been taken over the last while. We have to pull that back.

It's one thing to have laws, but it's a whole other thing to enforce them and administrate them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Thank you.

MP Chang, you have five minutes.

[Wade Chang, Liberal, Burnaby Central, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

My first question will be directed to Chief Teegee and Ms. Tristary.

The federal government has strengthened bail provisions for repeat violent offenders while requiring judges to consider the circumstances of indigenous accused.

What steps can the provinces and courts take to ensure that this commitment is implemented consistently and effectively?

[Regional Chief Terry Teegee]

One of the provisions that is provided by the court system is Gladue reports and understanding the context of the first nations perspective, especially those first nations.... There are very young ones who are caught within the system. We're trying to stop this revolving door with regard to offering rehabilitation and, perhaps even more so, getting out of gangs.

Mr. Sundberg has it right. Our most vulnerable are the ones who are being victimized in terms of why some of these issues are really happening.

Definitely, more resourcing needs to be offered to our court system to allow our first nations to have fair representation, such as we have in British Columbia. The way this policy stands regarding these bail provisions, I really can't support it without proper consultation.

I agree with Mr. Sundberg that we need better statistics. Part of that is first nations that are caught in the system and allow themselves to either rehabilitate or have some sort of prevention or diversion in terms of reoffending. That's a really important aspect, and this doesn't solve it.

[Wade Chang, Liberal, Burnaby Central, BC]

Mr. Gemmel, in your engagement with local governments, have you identified specific data-sharing or communication challenges that limit the effectiveness of coordination between provincial and municipal enforcement agencies?

[Matt Gemmel]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chang.

You mentioned data and statistics earlier. One example would be gathering and sharing data on bail and compliance with bail conditions between provincial agencies and law enforcement agencies. That's not currently happening the way it should be.

I would draw a parallel for the committee between health care data and criminal justice data. We effectively have 13 systems, and they're not always talking to each other. It's hard work to get them coordinated, but that's part of the work that is a reality in a country like Canada. There's a role for the federal government to lead and gather and coordinate that data so you don't have a situation where someone commits a crime in B.C., travels across the border and commits another crime in Alberta, and a judge or a justice of the peace in Alberta isn't aware that they're out on bail. That simply can't be allowed.

[Wade Chang, Liberal, Burnaby Central, BC]

Thank you.

Dr. Sundberg, much of the responsibility for bail supervision and enforcement rests with the provinces. From your perspective, do provincial systems currently have the capacity in terms of staffing, court resources and supervision programs to effectively implement the recent bail reforms?

[Kelly W. Sundberg]

That's an excellent question.

This is a challenge across our country where we look at the resourcing. We have a dearth of young people entering policing. There are more who are entering as peace officers, bylaw officers and special constables.

This is an excellent question because when I talk about the coordination and the calibration, one thing we need to look at is how we can institute, maybe, a tiered policing model where we have various law enforcement capacity. When we have a limited number of police and a limited number of law enforcement officers, there needs to be partnership in working together.

I do believe that provinces have the opportunity whereby they can start utilizing the services of not just the police, parole or probation but also others in the community, including community organizations and leadership.

That's a great point. We don't have enough bodies. That's what I was saying. When we have legislation, if we don't have the bodies and we don't have bodies that are well resourced, trained and equipped, then it's a moot point. In order to operationalize the law, we need to have the people to do it, and we need to have the best people to do it. Within our criminal justice system, we've seen a significant decline in those who enter into enforcement or regulatory positions. That is a big problem, meaning we now have to rethink, at provincial levels, how we coordinate all of the enforcement functions we need so that we can achieve the outcomes we really need. That is especially true for first nations police.

One thing Alberta is—

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Excuse me, Mr. Sundberg, but could you wrap it up, please.

[Kelly W. Sundberg]

Yes.

One really critical component, from when I look at these issues within Alberta, is the value and the importance of first nations police and law enforcement. It is one area that is grossly underfunded and under-resourced that I think is incredibly important and in need of more service.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

There's emphatic nodding of the head from the chair on that last point, Mr. Sundberg.

Mr. Fortin, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

I gather that the criteria in place aren't actually all that bad. I think you agreed—correct me if I'm wrong—that reversing the burden of proof for repeat offences could be a worthwhile avenue to explore.

That said, my biggest takeaway from your testimony is that we have trouble funding rehabilitation programs for people who have been found guilty, and we have prevention problems for society as a whole. Mr. Gillingham talked about health issues and addiction. We need to invest more in those resources and in rehabilitation. People are sent to prison, but I'm not sure that a lot of money has been invested in rehabilitating them.

I would perhaps like to hear what our Minister of Public Safety has to say about this. People are detained for a while, they are released and then they reoffend. I think that perhaps not enough effort is being made to rehabilitate them. That is more or less what I understand from your testimony as a whole.

First of all, I'd like you to tell me whether I'm right or wrong. Second, I would like you to quickly give us your opinions on this topic, since there is only a minute left.

Mr. Sundberg and Mr. Gillingham, what do you think?

[Kelly W. Sundberg]

Your interpretation is spot-on. We do need to have the resources. When someone is on bail and when someone is released from a sentence into the community, we need to think of the community they're going in to and the supports they have. The amount of money we spend on individuals from overdosing on the street, when you have a fire truck, an ambulance and the police.... When we think of all of these and aggregate all the costs around addressing what we know to be a fairly small cohort of citizens—unfortunately, a large percentage are first nations—we need to have those supports and resourcing.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Sundberg.

Mr. Gillingham, what do you think?

[Scott Gillingham]

I have a couple of quick comments.

One, incarceration exists in part to separate people who pose a risk to society from their potential victims. What I have heard through their stories though are people whose lives have been changed while they were incarcerated because they got access to the program and the rehabilitation they finally needed.

At an event recently, a guy got up and told his story. He had been arrested by the Winnipeg police again and again. He sat in jail one day, and finally he said, “I have a young son. I want to be a good dad.” He grabbed hold of the rehabilitation program that was available to him. He changed his life. He now has three kids, is married and has had a full-time job for three years because he got access to what he needed while he was in prison.

I agree with the chief. Working with first nations and indigenous leadership is critical to making that progress. As he said, statistically that is absolutely what is needed. I think all parts of the system need to work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Thank you, Mayor Gillingham.

Thank you to all the witnesses for their testimony today. Thank you from all members. I hope you have a great rest of the day. We're done for this hour. You can stay here and watch the next hour, but we'll suspend briefly to rotate in the next group.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

The committee now begins the second part of the meeting.

For the second panel of the day, we have, in their personal capacities, Ari Goldkind, a lawyer specialized in penal law, who is here by video conference.

We also have Chloé Leclerc, professor, Centre international de criminologie comparée, Université de Montréal.

Good afternoon, everyone.

We also have, from Victim Services of Brant, Penny McVicar, executive director.

Welcome, Ms. McVicar.

From the Women's Legal Education and Action Fund, we have Kat Owens, interim legal director.

I'll remind the witnesses that you each have five minutes for your opening statement. I will give you some reasonable time after the five minutes to sum up, and I'll perhaps remind you, but please try to remain within those parameters.

The sound test, which Mr. Fortin cares so much about, was successfully completed.