Justice Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2025

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

I want to talk to you about section 319. Do you know what the word “intifada” means?

[Nusaiba Al-Azem]

Yes.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

What does it mean?

[Nusaiba Al-Azem]

Intifada is a form of revolution.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

It's a violent resistance, correct?

[Nusaiba Al-Azem]

There are a number of different intifadas. There was a bread intifada in Egypt that came in, which was about economic revolution—

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

In the context of intifada against Jews in the State of Israel, intifada is violent resistance.

Are you going to suggest that it doesn't involve violence?

[Nusaiba Al-Azem]

I think it can involve violence, but it can also not involve.... Are we really having a discussion about Arabic translation right now?

I speak Arabic. Do you speak Arabic?

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

I speak a little bit of Arabic.

Thank you for conceding that in that context, it involves violence.

The term “intifada” is shouted every day on Canada's streets, whether it's “viva viva intifada” or “globalize the intifada”, which means bring the intifada here to Canada.

In your view, when that is being chanted in a North York neighbourhood, is that incitement to violence or not?

[Nusaiba Al-Azem]

Let me be clear, this has always been the position of the National Council of Canadian Muslims: If anybody is espousing any form of hatred against any group, and that includes anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, any other identifiable group, that is incorrect and it's something we—

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

I'm talking about the second subsection in 319. I'm not talking about hatred. I'm talking about incitement to violence, which is the other section.

My question for you again is, if you already concede that this is violence and it is shouted in Canadian streets, do you agree with me that the chant “globalize the intifada” or “viva intifada“ is incitement to violence, yes or no?

[Nusaiba Al-Azem]

I think your question really belies a lot of the problems with bringing this bill forward, and I think it belies some of the, let's say, motivations behind bringing it up at this point.

I think Professor Pardy was referring to the convoy. We saw a number of hate slogans and hateful logos and symbols around the convoy. We saw a number of them.

There was no attempt to bring a bill like this forward, so I think, if anything, that your question is actually belying that this is meant to curb the civil liberties of the millions of Canadians who have taken to the streets peacefully to oppose genocide.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

I'm perplexed that a Canadian lawyer somehow could justify incitement to violence. I'm also a lawyer, and I'm very perplexed by your position.

Hamas is a listed terrorist entity in Canada. Do you think it should be legal to fly a Hamas flag on a Canadian street?

[Nusaiba Al-Azem]

To be clear, this bill goes much beyond that—

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Just answer my question, please.

[Nusaiba Al-Azem]

—and I'd like to articulate—

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

I'm not asking beyond.... I'm just asking about the flag. Should it be lawful to fly a Hamas flag in North York?

[Nusaiba Al-Azem]

I think that it really depends on a lot of different things. What's the intention of the person flying it? Again, this is why something of this nature that impacts civil liberties does need to be examined very clearly.

I'd like to say that I did not concede that intifada is violent. I specifically did not concede that.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

AlI right.

If a person is chanting “intifada” and they're holding a flag of a terrorist entity like Hezbollah, should that be criminalized, in your view, or not?

[Nusaiba Al-Azem]

Again, my view is that this bill isn't even scratching that surface.

Let me give you an example of what we've seen and my concerns with this bill. Over the last year, we've seen members of the Muslim Shia community, every year, take to a procession, right...? It's called the Arbaeen. They take to the streets.

They took to the streets in Montreal wearing a green headband with Arabic calligraphy on it—

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

I wasn't asking about symbols.

I'm sorry, but my time is short. I have only about 30 seconds.

[Nusaiba Al-Azem]

I think you were asking about symbols. You were asking—

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

I refer you to the NCCM statement of October 8 in response to October 7. Why did the NCCM statement of October 8 fail to mention the word “Hamas”. A day after the October 7 attack, why did your organization in a statement that it issued not mention the word “Hamas” once?

[Nusaiba Al-Azem]

I don't know how that's even relevant to the provisions that we're discussing here, but let me just say—

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Why did your statement fail to condemn the October 7 attack?