Justice Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2025

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question will be for Ms. Al-Azem.

In recent media articles, Stephen Brown, the chief executive officer of the National Council of Canadian Muslims, said he's generally supportive of Bill C-9, noting that his organization has “lingering concerns over how the law will be applied and whether law enforcement will properly distinguish between what does and does not count as a hate symbol”.

Can you explain to us what is the scope of hate crime affecting the Muslim community in Canada, and to what extent is it linked to Islamophobia?

[Nusaiba Al-Azem]

It's certainly linked, and the scope is such that I didn't even know about that public statement because every day I'm busy dealing with the calls that we get day in and day out from Muslims across this country who have suffered from a variety of hate crimes, including just this week two assaults, again, a woman brutally beaten on the streets of Toronto. I think that's what your question was getting at.

Certainly, we see hate crimes that are unfortunately only gaining in numbers, and they don't seem to be letting up in all facets of life. Those Muslims are just participating in public life walking down the street, accessing a grocery store, driving out of a parking lot.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

To clarify the question, could you explain to us how it is directly linked to Islamophobia?

[Nusaiba Al-Azem]

Certainly, in terms of the crimes, I could draw some direct links. If somebody is punching you and saying something very viscerally anti-Muslim, then it's very clear that this culture and climate of Islamophobia enables and emboldens people to be able to behave in that way.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

You're with the legal department. Can you give us an idea of how many incidents you've received of this type of hate crime, or Islamophobia, over the last couple of months, or perhaps the last year?

[Nusaiba Al-Azem]

We've received well over 700 in the last year. We do a report annually. I don't have the numbers off of the top of my head. It is something I do revisit annually, but I just don't have it off the top of my head. I can tell you I get at least one call a day of these types of incidents.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

In your opening remarks, you spoke about wanting to be consulted.

Were you not aware that all communities, including the Muslim community, were consulted over the course of the summer with regard to the issue of Bill C-9? Were you not, or maybe your organization, consulted? I just want to be clear on that.

[Nusaiba Al-Azem]

I appreciate the opportunity. To clarify, I said to be consulted about the full contents. While we were consulted and we've had many consultations with governments about, for example, the free-standing hate provisions for many years, the part, for example, about section 319(2.2) is something that was completely a surprise.

There are lots of elements of the bill and that's why I said the full contents of the bill. It would have been nice, I think, to have proper consultation with all the communities that are impacted not just by the bill, but that the bill purports to protect.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

What parts of the bill were you consulted on during the course of the summer?

[Nusaiba Al-Azem]

I believe it was the free-standing hate crime provision and perhaps the obstruction offence. To be honest, I wasn't personally consulted, so I'd have to go back and check. It wasn't me who was in those consultations.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Okay, but you do recognize that the Muslim community was consulted.

[Nusaiba Al-Azem]

Yes, the Muslim community was consulted on certain elements of it, but the elements we weren't consulted on are the elements that we have severe concerns with.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

That is section 2.2. Is that correct?

[Nusaiba Al-Azem]

Exactly.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Can you share with the committee how Bill C-9, if passed, would affect the Canadian Muslim community?

[Nusaiba Al-Azem]

Sure.

I can give you the example of the Shia procession that I was trying to describe earlier of Shia Muslims who participate in the Arbaeen procession and walk with a green headband. That happened just last year, and a bunch of bigots took to the Internet posting photos of young children who were participating in that procession.

Again, it's not a political rally. There's no political speech involved. It's purely a religious observance, and a number of bigots took to the Internet posting photos of those children and saying that they were young Hamas or they were being trained and/or engaging in some kind of terrorist activity. This is where I get—

[The Chair, Liberal, Marc Miller]

Thank you, Ms. Al-Azem.

Mr. Fortin, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Professor Pardy, I am going to ask you a question that I have asked a few times. I am sure you have heard it before. It concerns what Adil Charkaoui said in October 2023, in Montreal. If you would like me to read the quote again, please let me know.

First, I would like to know whether, in your opinion, this type of speech should be allowed in Canada. You will probably say, as you did earlier, that it is not appropriate, but that it can be allowed. Second, section 319(3) of the Criminal Code provides a valid defence when hate speech is based on a religious text. Should this provision be removed from the Criminal Code?

[Bruce Pardy]

Let me address the second question first, because it's more straightforward.

Those defences that you're referring to in section 319 are defences to hate speech. I don't think hate speech should be a crime, so yes, those defences should remain.

Let's just be clear: When we're talking about hate speech, we are not talking about an assault. That is a threat of violence. If it were a threat of violence, it could be prosecuted as an assault. When we're talking about hate speech that does not include a threat of violence, then it's something else.

In my books, that speech should not be restricted, so the answer to your—

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Excuse me for interrupting, I know it’s rude, but my speaking time is two and a half minutes, and two minutes have already passed.

[Bruce Pardy]

That's okay. Go ahead.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Let me give you an example to see if I understand correctly. If I said that all Liberal and Conservative political organizers should be exterminated because I lost my election, that could, at a stretch, be acceptable to you, even though I am calling for them to be killed. Is that correct?

[Bruce Pardy]

No, that's not true.

There's going to be a problem here where speech is not just hate speech but is actually a threat. What you're describing there is potentially a threat to the lives of other people.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

However, when we say, “Allah, do something about the enemies of the people…identify them all, then exterminate them…” doesn’t that seem like a threat of violence to you?

[Bruce Pardy]

Yes.