Evidence of meeting #6 for Library of Parliament in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was documents.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Anne Minh-Thu Quach NDP Salaberry—Suroît, QC
You're meeting with your colleagues from the U.K. Are you aware of other parliaments that make their publications available to everyone? If so, do you know how they go about it?
Senior Principal Clerk
No. I must confess that the discussions around accessibility are still quite preliminary. It's really a technology challenge. We have to see whether a solution is out there to help us make the publications available. If not, we'll have to figure out what to do in the meantime as we look for a solution. We'll be talking with the people at the Treasury Board Secretariat, to be sure, because I think they can help us with the process.
NDP
Anne Minh-Thu Quach NDP Salaberry—Suroît, QC
The biggest problem is converting all the documents. Is that right?
I don't know much about it, and it mustn't be easy if it's not already done, but could the documents be sent in their original format and converted to PDF by the Library of Parliament?
Senior Principal Clerk
As I mentioned, written questions can be very lengthy. They can be hundreds of pages long and include graphics, images and tables. That's the problem.
Unfortunately, documents often come in the same day they are tabled, so it's impossible for us to make the necessary adjustments to make them accessible.
I think what the bill and the Privy Council are proposing is a system that would make documents accessible from the moment they are created. Doing the work to make them accessible prior to their being posted is almost akin to rebuilding the whole document, which we aren't able to do, unfortunately.
NDP
Anne Minh-Thu Quach NDP Salaberry—Suroît, QC
The rule requiring that documents be received the day they are tabled is a long-standing one. Is it something that could easily be changed? Is confidentiality a factor? In terms of the date on which documents must be received, what issues come into play?
Senior Principal Clerk
It's a rule that's long been established. I can't comment on that.
Clearly, if multiple departments and agencies have to prepare answers to written questions, it's a big job for the Privy Council to coordinate all that. I don't know whether it's possible to do it more quickly or in a more accessible format.
Senator, Prince Edward Island (Cavendish), ISG
My questions are really all supplementary to the ones that my colleagues have just raised.
My question is, how does the rest of government operate? The Canadian government is a big operation and they move tons of data around among various departments. Surely we're not in the age of taking a PDF and trying to take it apart and so on.
It's astounding to me that in the current age, this problem wasn't solved long ago, considering the various needs of various departments, not just Parliament.
Senior Principal Clerk
Senator, as an employee of the House administration, I certainly can't answer on behalf of the government. I'm not in a position to do that.
What I can say is that we have started discussions with the Privy Council as well as the Treasury Board Secretariat. They are looking into it. There's legislation before committee right now. I presume they're working on the strategy, its standards, and eventually maybe even regulations. I don't know.
That's all I can say at the moment on that.
Conservative
Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Along the senator's line of questions, and I want to go back to my colleague from the NDP who has stated it as well, are we taking steps to possibly look at other jurisdictions?
In every committee I've served on, that was always one of my first questions: What other jurisdictions have these challenges?
Mr. Rodrigue, you have answered some of that, but I'm just curious. If we are taking steps to possibly go, I would think Great Britain would be a prime example, the first one to come to mind. Are we taking steps to possibly see what they're doing?
Senior Principal Clerk
I'm meeting with my colleagues from the U.K. in a week or two, and I'll certainly be asking those questions to see what their challenges were and whether any solutions were brought forward. At the moment, I haven't had those discussions with them.
Conservative
Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON
Not yet. Okay.
I'm interested and will ask legal counsel about human rights complaints. I suppose it's a real possibility. Obviously, that hasn't happened yet.
What would happen if we were to receive a human rights complaint currently?
Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons
It does happen. There are human rights complaints filed from time to time, and they are dealt with. They are responded to.
The human rights process works in such a way that, at the initial stages, there's an attempt to resolve the matter. Those steps are taken. We have not had a complaint that has gone on to decision, but the issues are there, and the human rights principles, both in the Canadian Human Rights Act and in proposed Bill C-81, really go to the efforts that are made at the front end and at the back end to ensure the full participation of persons with disabilities in society.
It's obviously something that is taken very seriously by the House of Commons, the House of Commons administration and the government as well.
It is an area where there is a need for collaboration between the two institutions to ensure that the best way is found to ensure accessibility.
Conservative
Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON
I'm not quite sure I understand exactly what you're saying.
Are you suggesting that we have had human rights complaints but the response has been such that they've accepted that we don't have those capabilities yet, or could we possibly see a day where somebody who is, let's say, visually impaired would say, “That's not good enough; I expect to have this”?
Have we gotten to that point yet? If we did, what would we do?
Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons
What we want to do is avoid a situation where someone would file a complaint saying that it is not accessible enough and that they would be able to show that we haven't done enough as an institution.
In those types of situations, the processes will look at what the institution did. What efforts did it make? Did it turn its mind to accessibility? Did it explore the necessary solutions? Did it work with the partners to ensure a solution?
That is why, as my colleague is saying, we are looking at all those things when we make information available on our websites: Is it accessible? Is it accessible in a timely manner? If there are challenges to that accessibility, do we have the tools to get it done? If we don't, and this is one instance where the timeliness of the publication is a challenge, are we working with our partners in the government asking them to make those documents accessible at source so that when we receive them we're able to immediately publish in a way that is fully accessible?
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Thank you, Madam Joint Chair.
I know complaints are confidential, but could you shed some light on the types of complaints you receive? Are they issues that keep coming up? Do they involve the same thing? Do they all fit in a particular category? What steps have been taken to date to address the complaints? Have sound measures been put in place? Do you plan to take further action? Lastly, how can we help you address complaints properly?
Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons
I would say that measures have been taken to make documents that committees post on the Internet more accessible.
We've also let people know that the documents will be made available and that any problems with accessibility have to be reported to the clerks immediately. That way, the proper steps are taken to follow up, and we can fix problems, anticipate needs and make sure the information provided is accessible to persons with disabilities.
Senior Principal Clerk
Just to follow up on what my colleague said, I would add that, as of a few months ago, the House Administration began paying a bit more attention to the issue. We had some presentations. We are trying to raise awareness around accessibility. The managers of the various services attended presentations. We examined the publication process, and we identified problems, so we are in the midst of working on a training program to build expertise within the House. In fact, we'll be making a presentation to the diversity council in a week or two. It's an issue we are really working on.
As soon as Bill C-81 was introduced, we created an accessible version in Word and we even made the bill available in braille. That was the first time we did that, so we are beginning to take the right steps.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Very good.
The job of scanning parliamentary returns is a colossal one. Given the volume of documents, how can we do our part to help harmonize the process?
Senior Principal Clerk
That's not an easy question to answer. I almost want to say that you should keep asking about it, perhaps even invite us back for a progress report on where we are in our discussions with the departments. That might be a good idea. If not, you could give us some time to talk to the people we need to and look for the answers.