Library of Parliament Committee on Nov. 8th, 2018

[Anne Minh-Thu Quach, NDP, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

I don't know if this is the right way to go. I understand and agree that, at the moment, no one has access to the documents. However, as I understand it, the Library receives documents at the last minute in PDF, which is not an electronic format.

So it seems to me that the most logical way to help the Library people publish all these documents would be for them to be able to receive documents from the various departments in electronic form as they go along. That seems to me to be a much more logical and reasonable solution.

Mr. Rodrigue also said that they do not have the tool they need to convert all documents in a consistent way. If that tool does not exist, it is not going to be invented in a month or so. If they do not have it, it would at least help them if all departments were required to send their documents in electronic format as they go along and not on the day they are sent, which is too difficult.

Let us put ourselves in their shoes: even if they were forced to do it in 30 days, it could not be done.

[Guy Lauzon, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

We can agree.

[Anne Minh-Thu Quach, NDP, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

Really? That's great.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Lucie Moncion]

Mr. Graham, you have the floor.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I have an idea for a motion to see what the feeling of the room would be. It's not an exact framing, but I'll put it up for discussion here:

That the Committee reiterate its desire, expressed on Thursday, May 15, 2014, to have sessional papers available in electronic form to the general public within a reasonable timeframe, while considering accessibility issues, and that an update be provided on progress and timelines toward this goal no later than the end of the current fiscal year.

Does that sound reasonable?

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Lucie Moncion]

Mr. Van Kesteren.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Here's my only problem. I know that I don't think I'll get too much support for travelling. I was saying it somewhat in jest.

However, I'm a car dealer. This is like when somebody has a problem with their car. They go to a mechanic and ask the mechanic to fix it. I'm not so convinced that the mechanics have the diagnostics. I think what we need to do is ask them to reply.

I don't think we had a clear response. Do you have the tools to do this?

[A voice]

No.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

We have to set out to find those tools.

[Guy Lauzon, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Your suggestion would give them the tools. They'll transfer it in electronic form. Then they can—

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Lucie Moncion]

Could you please finish?

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

At this point, I really think we'd be further ahead to instruct our analysts, clerks or whoever to send a letter out to other jurisdictions and say, “We have this problem. Do you have the same problem and if you do, how are you dealing with it?”

If nobody has a solution, then we're going to have to dig something up. You can tell somebody to fix this thing. If they can't fix it, you can talk until you're blue in the face, but it's not going to happen. We'll be here in another four years.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Lucie Moncion]

Senator Duffy.

[Michael Duffy]

Madam Chair, I don't believe for a minute that there doesn't exist.... If we can put a man on the moon, somewhere there is a technological answer. Our witnesses today said that they were reaching out to Britain and so on. I am a little surprised that it's taken four years to do that.

I think what we're missing is some political will somewhere in the bureaucracy. People aren't taking this seriously. I think it's important that we show Parliament that there is public demand and concern.

I would like to amend my colleague's motion by adding a phrase or a clause that would suggest that this committee invite representatives from the Council of Canadians with Disabilities to appear here to tell us about the need that exists. We are, in effect, responding, in our report to Parliament, to a public demand for access to these documents and that the status quo not continue to be acceptable. It is not some vanity thing on the part of MPs but in fact is a real public need.

I think if we called on these people, especially considering the accessible Canada act which is now before Parliament, that would give us some added momentum, perhaps. It would only take one meeting. It wouldn't be a long delay. We wouldn't have to have a whole lot of hearings. It would provide us with some oomph to get this paid attention to, because it certainly hasn't been followed up on since our colleague wrote the initial motion.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Lucie Moncion]

Senator Duffy, what we could do, instead of amending Mr. Graham's motion, is have a motion that is specific to your request.

[Michael Duffy]

I am in the capable hands of the chair.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Lucie Moncion]

We could put that in the report.

The next person to speak is Mr. Graham.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I was just going to say that I support what you want to do, but I think it's premature.

In my motion, I say, “considering accessibility issues”. I think it is their responsibility to consider those issues. In the response we want by the end of the fiscal year, they have to have considered them, because we have timelines for getting this done. They are in the motion. If they don't give us a satisfactory answer, that is the time to start making more noise. It's already taken four and a half years. Two more months isn't going to kill us. I want this done properly as well as quickly.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Lucie Moncion]

Madam Jordan.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Mr. Graham may have already answered my question. Is it this committee's role to call witnesses, or would it be up to the people who testified today to actually do the research on accessibility? That's a question I have.

I think if the motion says that they have to do this, it would be their responsibility to actually call those witnesses themselves or talk to them and have those discussions and consultations.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Lucie Moncion]

Okay, thank you.

Madame Quach.

[Anne Minh-Thu Quach, NDP, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

I was wondering whether Mr. Graham would accept an addition to his motion, that we also require departments to provide the Library of Parliament with answers, in electronic format, to written questions or any questions that are asked. I think the deadline is the end of the fiscal year. Can we add that? If not, can we add it as a report that we could table in the House of Commons?

The lawyer said that we could report to the House of Commons and ask for a response. That would be another possible solution. Mr. Rodrigue said that they do not have the conversion tool that can standardize all formats of electronic documents. Could a computer expert come and explain to us what tools parliamentarians could have for their work in the House of Commons? I assume there is such a thing. Obviously, we don't look like computer experts. Could someone come and explain to us how these things work and where the House could find those tools?

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Lucie Moncion]

Mr. Ouellette, you have the floor.

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I agree with Mr. Graham that we need to do things right, but I also am not convinced that the Library of Parliament or the officials will be able to put in place a user-friendly format. It's great to have everything online, but if it's not user-friendly to the public, what's the point of having stuff online? If you can't research and do your own research easily, then there's no point to even do anything related to it. Part of the issue is related to how the PDFs are done.

I'd also like to contend that it's not just consideration of accessibility issues; I think they must consider accessibility issues. I think we have to be clear in our directives, because it's been four years. With consideration, I think we're using fairly diplomatic language. I think it's time. I think we've moved beyond that.

[The Joint Chair, Hon. Lucie Moncion]

Mr. Lauzon, you have the floor.