Evidence of meeting #6 for Library of Parliament in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was documents.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON
Thank you.
We have the ball rolling here. I don't want to break the continuity. If we want to continue on with this motion, I can bring my other issue up in a minute.
If we want to continue on with this resolution, we can do that first. I have something else I wanted to suggest.
The Joint Chair Hon. Lucie Moncion
Okay.
Senator Duffy had a supplementary, and then I'll come back to you.
Senator, Prince Edward Island (Cavendish), ISG
We all take the question of accessibility very seriously. We all know constituents who have problems, and we should never forget them. Has the Library of Parliament engaged with any of the stakeholder groups on the accessibility side to work with them so they understand we're making a sincere effort to resolve this issue?
Wouldn't that kind of outreach pave the way in terms of our goodwill, so that if we did follow the suggestions of the motion, it would be with the understanding that we would communicate to these groups that we are doing this on an interim basis while we work on a permanent solution? Has that outreach been done? Have we spoken to any of these accessibility groups?
Senior Principal Clerk
I can't speak on behalf of the library. I don't know if they did have those discussions. We didn't.
I know there's a process in place in the act that will provide for consultations. We're certainly committed to doing that on behalf of the House administration. We want to make those documents as accessible as we can, while at the same time trying to make them available as soon as possible.
Senator, Prince Edward Island (Cavendish), ISG
It seems to me that, if we start a dialogue with those groups, we would lower the temperature and would increase the understanding on their part that we want to be their partners in this, and that it would be a step-by-step process.
Conservative
Dave Van Kesteren Conservative Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON
I'm going to go off in a different direction, only because I think we recognize we have a problem.
I want to go back to what I suggested first. There must be other jurisdictions that are faced with this. Now, having said that, it would be interesting to find out if this committee has ever travelled. If it hasn't, we should possibly send a letter out. We know, for instance, Great Britain and Australia, those countries with a similar parliamentary system, must have. We should tell them what our problem is, and ask how they've dealt with it. If there's a workable solution, then we can send a task force out and come back and report and get this mess cleaned up.
Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons
The only thing I would want to suggest on the issue of reporting and to the earlier question about a motion of this committee being implemented by the House of Commons administration, I would flag the possibility that the report could be made to the House, and the House make a decision on this, which is the normal course of committee recommendations. I just wanted to bring that clarification and leave it at that.
NDP
Anne Minh-Thu Quach NDP Salaberry—Suroît, QC
Thank you.
Actually, you have sort of answered my question.
To help you move in this direction, you said that one solution would be to give you time to meet and then invite you back to provide us with a progress report.
Who makes the decision and gives the green light, ultimately, to move in the direction of digitization? Is it the Privy Council Office? Do you have to meet with its members? If not, who are the people with whom you have to negotiate? Who are those people?
Is there a timeline and do you have meetings already planned? Do we have to invite you back in two, three or six months?
Senior Principal Clerk
We are currently talking to the Privy Council, but it has told us that it does not have the authority to impose guidelines on individual departments. That's the Treasury Board Secretariat's job. So we contacted the Secretariat, but we're really only in the preliminary discussions. In the coming days and weeks, we will certainly meet with them and try to find some solutions. That being said, this is a collaboration, not a negotiation. It's really a collaboration, and we can certainly talk to you again about the outcome of the discussions.
Senior Principal Clerk
We would like, as much as possible, to have a system in place at the beginning of the next Parliament. That is our objective.
NDP
Senior Principal Clerk
Exactly. We need a major development effort to achieve this.
NDP
Anne Minh-Thu Quach NDP Salaberry—Suroît, QC
Do you have the tools you need? We were talking about when it would be possible to obtain the documents in advance. There are electronic issues. Are there any tools you don't have at the moment? Is it expensive to obtain them, to have the appropriate resources and expertise in place to deploy them? What's the stumbling block?
Senior Principal Clerk
We really need to find the tool that would allow us to do this, but it seems to be a problem. Based on the initial discussions we have had, there is really no tool right now that would allow us to achieve the result we are looking for.
Senator, Prince Edward Island (Cavendish), ISG
Madam Chair, I wonder if we as a committee should invite people like the Council of Canadians with Disabilities who on October 30 wrote to Minister Qualtrough about Bill C-81, which is the disabilities act.
Should we invite them to come here to help us understand the need for this ability in our documentation? Maybe we could begin to forge a partnership there that we can get this thing moving. It's been years, as our colleagues have said. It seems to me to be, frankly, a bit strange that on something this important we haven't had some meetings with the disability community.
Could I make it a motion or an amendment?
The Joint Chair Hon. Lucie Moncion
I would like to wait until the end, once we have thanked our witnesses, and then we can take this back among ourselves, but I have noted it. There are two items that we are going to be speaking on at that time.
Thank you.
Mr. Graham. No?
Ms. Jordan, you are next.
Liberal
Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Madam Chair, although I totally appreciate where my colleague Mr. Lauzon is coming from with regard to this taking a while and let's just get it done, I do have concerns about just doing something and then asking for forgiveness later.
Can you tell me what it would look like if we do have a human rights challenge? Are we talking about class action lawsuits, undoing work that we've been working on for five years and going back to square one?
I'd like to know those things beforehand because they may play into a decision that's made.
Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons
In the context of a human rights complaint, the Canadian Human Rights Act provides the right to full participation in Canadian society. If there is a complaint filed, it is looked at, responded to, and we try to resolve it. If it's a complaint where we would clearly have not met the human rights obligations, this can lead to orders—financial orders, remedial orders. That's in the context of the Canadian Human Rights Act process.
In the context of proposed Bill C-81, which is not adopted, not in force, it contemplates a proactive model—inspections, recommendations, progress reports and so on. At the end of the day these also are outcomes where Parliament or the House would be found not to have complied with fundamental quasi-constitutional human rights legislation.
This is why we're being very cautious about this and taking this very seriously, given the importance of the rights at issue and the importance of this institution to Canadians, and to Canadians with disabilities.
Liberal
Bernadette Jordan Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
I think it would be inappropriate for the Government of Canada to go against their own Canadian Human Rights Act. If we have an act in place for a reason, to knowingly go against it, to ask for forgiveness later would be totally against what I think the Government of Canada should be doing.