Evidence of meeting #108 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was training.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:25 p.m.
Founder, Roméo Dallaire Child Soldiers Initiative, As an Individual
Personally, to be fair about this, I'd ask them about Vimy first.
12:25 p.m.
Founder, Roméo Dallaire Child Soldiers Initiative, As an Individual
Then Hill 70, they were all interlocked.
Also ask them about how we invented the storm troopers that in fact made the Canadian corps in that last 100 days a significant capability.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
I'm hearing from you that peacekeeping and Canada's role in peacekeeping is just as important to be setting priorities abroad or with the UN as it is setting those priorities in communication at home.
12:25 p.m.
Founder, Roméo Dallaire Child Soldiers Initiative, As an Individual
Yes, but integrate it. It's not a standalone. We use the term “whole of government”. We used to use the three Ds: diplomacy, defence and development. It's a capability that we want to continue to nurture.
We put together an enormous amount of government-wide capabilities during Afghanistan. When Afghanistan ended, all the integrated capabilities of all these different disciplines disappeared. The only ones that are still doing business is defence. Why did we lose that? We could have taken that and transported it into peace operations to prepare us for this.
12:25 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.
I want to go back to Dr. Whitman's opening statement where she talked about a centre of excellence. I have two questions. One is just what your vision of that is. The second question would be on the utility of a separate centre of excellence for child soldiers versus the full integration of child soldiers into the training that's done in peacekeeping.
12:25 p.m.
Executive Director, Roméo Dallaire Child Soldiers Initiative, As an Individual
Thank you for that opportunity.
First of all, being clear that one of the things that we need to do as a smaller nation, with a relatively smaller set of troops that we contribute, is to also be really clear on niches that we may have and not try to take on everything that exists. For example, you know the Norwegians or the Swedes are experts on gender dynamics. Why are we trying to enter into an area where there are already experts? Instead, let's complement it by bringing in an area like children.
The centre of excellence could be wider than just child soldiers for sure, but it could be the entry point because we believe absolutely that you can maybe even call this a centre for children, peace and security. It's about how these elements wrap into addressing peace and security globally and understanding that if you don't address the recruitment and use of child soldiers, all the other grave violations that are committed against children will also not stop.
It's about looking at where that key centre in which we have some expertise that we can focus on is, so that we can then radiate out towards other elements. There are certainly areas on the domestic front we've been working on with police forces here in Canada and tools and approaches that we've developed. Even next week, I'm being asked to go to Sweden, Norway and the Netherlands to demonstrate, because they're very interested in what they could learn on a domestic level about how to handle some of these vulnerabilities of children.
12:30 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
The second part I was asking about was the specialized training versus integrating it into the other parts of training.
12:30 p.m.
Executive Director, Roméo Dallaire Child Soldiers Initiative, As an Individual
There's no problem with integrating it into the training, but I think that first we have to create a capability of understanding the specialized dynamic of it, and then how it could be inserted. One of the things we need to do is to look at how we work with those groups—whether it's the CAF, particular training institutions like Kingston, etc.—to make sure that the expertise actually exists there first, and work with them and mentor those trainers and build that capacity. Then, as I said, there's the lessons learned dynamic of that, because this is not an issue that never changes once you learn it. There are always new tactics and procedures, and new country dynamics.
One of the points we made, certainly to General Rouleau, was the fact that understanding the issues of child soldiers in Iraq is different from understanding the issue of child soldiers in South Sudan. While there are some similarities, you need to understand the nuances to be able to have precision in terms of your tactic.
12:30 p.m.
Founder, Roméo Dallaire Child Soldiers Initiative, As an Individual
Very rapidly—
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr
Could you hold that thought for one quick second? I have to keep the times evened out here, but I will get back to you, General.
Given the time we have on the clock and the people who have expressed interest to the clerk that they want another question, we will go to four-minute questions so that we will be able to continue on with trains of thought that weren't yet completed.
I'm going to yield the floor to MP Spengemann for his first four-minute question and then, again, please respect the paper and take 30 seconds to wind down so everyone has an opportunity.
MP Spengemann.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Thank you very much.
I have two questions, and hopefully I can get them in within the four minutes.
Children do not belong in a theatre of war because they're vulnerable. It's morally wrong.
How are we thinking differently today, if at all, about adult women combatants? Maybe I mean less about women in uniform, but more about women who are part of insurgent groups. In other words, operationally, even though on our side of the fence we are trying to promote and are actively promoting women as a stabilizing power in peace and security, if coalition forces were to come upon a scenario where there were adult women involved in combat against them, are we thinking differently in the sense that we look at women as vulnerable?
12:30 p.m.
Founder, Roméo Dallaire Child Soldiers Initiative, As an Individual
From our side, Canada was the first country to have a combat arms female officer die in the operational theatre, and that was Captain Goddard. She had called in fire to protect about 120 infantrymen deployed.
Women have demonstrated that they are quite capable, just as effective and brave, and can sustain the pressures of combat when so committed and when trained to do so. Women who are in other forces are still, in many cases, a new capability. However, women in non-state actors, that is a complexity in regard to what extent they are under duress, or whether they are there as actual volunteers. I think that is a question we've been looking at, the problem of how we help non-state actors get rid of child soldiers, let alone how to not recruit women.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
That leads to my second question perfectly because it is about your mention earlier of the role of NGOs in peacekeeping and, more broadly speaking, the importance of on-the-ground intelligence in peacekeeping. Could you say a bit more about that?
12:30 p.m.
Founder, Roméo Dallaire Child Soldiers Initiative, As an Individual
I'll let Dr. Whitman say a few words, but....
We work with UNICEF extensively on the ground because, as we are working to prevent the children from being recruited, we're working with education programs to instruct young children not to get sucked in and not to get recruited. We have to know, also, how to handle the children and hand them over to bodies like the NGOs who, in fact, we hope will prevent re-recruitment, and we hope the reintegration process works. Re-recruitment is a great danger because an experienced child soldier.... When I was in Darfur, we had kids there who were being used in Côte d'Ivoire, so the trafficking of child soldiers is a danger that we consider.
Dr. Whitman.
12:30 p.m.
Executive Director, Roméo Dallaire Child Soldiers Initiative, As an Individual
I think it's important that there are ways to bridge information gaps and approaches, but that means thinking about it carefully because, yes, a lot of the NGOs on the ground still don't want to collaborate with the military actors on the ground, for good reason.
There are groups, like ourselves, who bridge that divide because we can talk to both entities in the languages they both understand. It means taking those approaches that the NGOs want to be taken with children, relaying that to the military, and the military coming back and saying that this isn't working because “You want us to do this, but none of you are available for...”. I think there is an important dialogue that has to get created there.
I just want to reinforce what General Dallaire is saying about communities. That means thinking wider, too, about that engagement.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Thank you, Chair.
First, I want to make sure I correct the record. I think I might have inadvertently said that General Dallaire's service was in Somalia. It was in Rwanda. I want to make sure that is corrected in the committee Hansard.
General Dallaire, you mentioned child soldiers in Ukraine. I'm only aware of child soldiers in Ukraine being used by the Russia-backed separatist forces. Are you seeing it on the other side or just in the Donbass in terms of their being used by the Russian proxy army?
12:35 p.m.
Founder, Roméo Dallaire Child Soldiers Initiative, As an Individual
We've been informed that it apparently is not a significant factor; however, it does exist. The question is, to what extent? One of the problems we're having is in terms of people reporting they're facing child soldiers so that we can actually get the data, the metrics, in order to adjust the training and to provide it.
When soldiers see children not as a child but as a combatant, they won't report it, as I didn't. That's part of the training we do. This is to make them aware that every time you see a child standing by a gate bringing food or see children who are shining the boots of the troops in their compound, all of those can be child soldiers operating for somebody. Without the training, they don't discern it. You don't get the intelligence and you don't get the picture that, “Wait a minute, these are preliminary operations for something that will happen”.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
It would probably be worth your while to talk to some of our friends in Ukraine about making sure their military is properly trained to report it, but the sad part is that the Russians don't let the OSCE observers go into Donbass.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Dr. Whitman, you were mentioning that there are seven state armies currently out there recruiting child soldiers and using them in combat. Which states are those?