National Defence Committee on March 3rd, 2021

[Gary Walbourne]

Effective? I'm not sure. I don't see the outcome of the investigations when they happen. Was there a concentrated, collaborative effort that everyone was going to try to do the right thing? I'm not sure.

The problem is basically the same thing that I've been complaining about for years. It comes down to the independence. The sexual misconduct response centre reports administratively to the deputy minister of the department, and organizationally and operationally into the chief's office. There is no independence there.

While I was in situ I heard from a lot of people who came to me and said, “I'll never go to that centre. Why would I do that? That's a short circuit for my career.” That is out there, and I believe it's still in the environment. Though I've removed myself from this seat, I still have a lot of friends and acquaintances in the environment, and I keep current on the issues.

The same sentiment that was there when it was created is there today. Why is this reporting into the deputy minister administratively, and organizationally into the chief's office? It's—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

All right. Thank you very much.

We will move on to Ms. Alleslev, please.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

I'd like to continue on with my colleague's previous question, but I also want to express our deepest thanks to you, because if we don't have honourable men and women like you to take on this auspicious responsibility and do the very best to protect the institution and the victims, then we have no hope. Your contribution here today is furthering that a great deal. Thank you very much.

I'd like to talk to you a bit about the comment you made when you said that you wanted the minister to do his job. When you took the complaint, or the allegation, about General Vance to the minister, what were the options available to the minister to do his job with the information you gave him?

[Gary Walbourne]

Well, I don't know if this falls in the framework of a minister or a manager or a supervisor, but I was his direct report. I went to him with a confidential issue and asked him specifically, please keep this confidential and please get back to me with some advice. As part of doing his job.... I think that if he had done that, that would have been part of doing his job.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Absolutely.

Could he have taken further action, independent of giving you advice, to get to the bottom of this allegation?

[Gary Walbourne]

Well, I think that's been very apparent with the latest move we've made at the top of the Canadian Armed Forces, so there were actions available. I'm not going to sit here and try to skirt around that question. Yes, I believe he had, like I said, other levers at his disposal.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

The evidence you provided him, had he taken it, would have furthered that end...?

[Gary Walbourne]

It would have proven beyond a doubt that the allegation had merit, and it may have given him an option to look into it in a different way. I have no idea.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Because these allegations were against the chief of the defence staff, who is above—in a reporting authority—the chief of the defence staff?

[Gary Walbourne]

I think that would be the minister.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

It could have been viewed as being his job to make sure that the CDS was in fact doing the job that he was in, and to look at the information you had provided for him to be able to do that.

[Gary Walbourne]

That's correct.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Could you also tell us a bit about...? I think you mentioned that you met with the deputy secretary to cabinet. Is that correct?

[Gary Walbourne]

No, that—

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Or it was the PCO. Was it your understanding when speaking with the members from the PCO that they would take it to cabinet?

[Gary Walbourne]

As I stated earlier, I was shocked that they even knew about it. I'm sure the PCO could have offered a different lane of service, I think. I was absolutely shocked that they knew about it, so I was put on my back heel when I went into the room and that was what was asked of me.

As I said, you find yourself in a position where you're kind of caught in the framework where I report to the minister for one thing, but I had to go to the deputy for a handout on something else. It's asinine.

On PCO, there's another group that we could have a whole other committee meeting on. To go to that office looking for help and assistance in the predicament I was in.... I didn't get any. I'm sorry, but I don't have great faith in.... From what I've received, I don't have great faith in PCO.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

We've talked about the allegations specifically around the chief of the defence staff—not what they were, but how it progressed—and we've discussed what the minister could have done. But you also brought up some very discouraging information around the process. Sometimes we have bosses who are ignorant and negligent of the process and therefore undermine doing stuff because of it. Sometimes they're wilful and deliberate in their interference in the process. And then sometimes it's what you've described: They escalate to using the process as a means of intimidation and against ensuring a positive outcome.

Could you give us some idea of how we've arrived at that and how we can possibly regain the trust and confidence and fix the processes so that it is no longer within the purview of the people to do such a thing?

[Gary Walbourne]

Well, I think getting out of it.... Others who've come before me have said that it's a cultural change. It will take time. But until the Government of Canada makes a decision to get this right, we'll have this conversation again in six months. Take—

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

So the buck stops with the minister and the Prime Minister.

[Gary Walbourne]

I'm—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

All right. Thank you very much.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

We'll move on to Mr. Spengemann, please.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Madam Chair, thank you very much.

Mr. Walbourne, thank you for being with us.

I'd like to take you to some committee appearances back in 2014 and 2015 and to what you said on the record. In an appearance you made to this same committee in 2014, you were asked this by then member of Parliament Joyce Murray:

If not the ombudsman's office, then where in the armed forces do people have a safe place to go with these kinds of concerns when it seems like, even in civil society, nine out of ten people don't step forward when there's been a sexual assault. It surprises me that it's really not your jurisdiction. Whose jurisdiction is it?

This was your response at the time: “it would be turned over to the military police or in some cases civilian authorities.”

Again, Mr. Walbourne, why did you go to the minister with these issues when you were on the record as stating that the correct organization to investigate these types of claims was the military police?

[Gary Walbourne]

I do believe my reference to the military police or civilian police services was to do with sexual assault.