National Defence Committee on March 12th, 2021

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Having experienced the frustration of being a member of a party that the House does not recognize for a few years myself, I think I will follow the example of my colleague Mr. Garrison, and leave my time to our colleague Elizabeth May, who always has relevant and important questions to ask.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you, my dear friend.

Thank you.

Lieutenant-Commander Trotter, again, I want to go back to your conversation. I never heard of this. I will be honest with you. I just looked up Amelie Armstrong. Other friends of mine around this table have put forward their views on this sort of thing, but I have heard the term “chief of staff” in a political context only in relation to chief of staff to a minister so I certainly understand why you would have thought that. I have never heard of a chief of staff to a department before, but that is, apparently, Amelie Armstrong's role. I thank my colleague, Mr. Bezan, for suggesting she might be a witness.

When you contacted her, and she was responding to the news that you were actually speaking to her about a sexual misconduct complaint about the newly appointed chief of staff, you said she expressed surprise.

At that point, were you surprised it was only the next day, as I go through my notes, that you were called upon at the Esquimalt base to report to an interview at what you thought would be the wrong place to go, the Canadian Forces national investigation service, if I'm not mistaken. You showed up there and had your interview there.

In terms of the circumstances of how that was conducted, could you give us more details on that experience.

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

Yes. It was conveyed to me by the warrant officer at CFNIS in Ottawa that he was in a liaison role with the SMRC. Maybe my trust with the SMRC and their role, and how it translated to him because he's a liaison with them and then the way he transferred me to an appropriate authority within CFNIS on the coast....

Like I said in my opening remarks, for a full 24 hours or more I had been running in circles. I thought enough was enough, and that I just needed to make a statement. It was videorecorded. There were other members.

The information was there, and I had to give my information because at that point I didn't think I had anywhere else to turn.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much.

I'm afraid your time is up, Madam May.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Mr. Garrison, go ahead please.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Again, I want to thank Lieutenant-Commander Trotter for his testimony today. I think he has shed very valuable light on, as Ms. May pointed out, what I like to refer to as the wrong door defence, that somehow complainants and those who are reporting complaints are going to the wrong place.

Also, there was the very unfortunate but useful testimony on the reaction of hostility toward attempts to file a second complaint, and the thing we can't talk about today, which is the reality of threats that were made against you as a result of doing so.

I think you have also cast both a positive and negative light on the culture of the Canadian Forces, and I want to state again how I do think you are a role model, the role model who we expect to see in the Canadian Forces.

I have a couple of simple questions here. We talked about the SMRC. We talked about the CFNIS. Was it clear to you, and would it be clear to most members of the Canadian Forces, who these organizations report to?

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

I don't think it would be entirely clear to absolutely everybody in the Canadian Forces who these organizations report to. Even about the SMRC, I was unaware that they fell under the deputy minister. I thought it was just an independent body that was stood up by the Canadian Forces. I can't infer what other people think.

With respect to the Canadian Forces national investigation service, I understand there have been comments made in the media that they are independent of the chain of command and they are separate from the military police. From what I know, and I have been able to look into the Canadian Forces structure, the CFNIS reports to the provost marshal, the provost marshal to VCDS, and the VCDS to CDS, but that's only because I did a little bit more digging when somebody made that statement. Whether other people know that, again, I would have to ask them.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Would you agree that it would be fair to say that anyone dealing with these difficult issues of sexual misconduct wouldn't presume that these organizations were actually independent of the chain of command that they're being forced to complain about, when it involves senior officers?

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

I can't get into other people's heads. I don't want to make decisions for other people about whether they trust them or not. I'm going to have to leave that up to those individuals.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much.

We will go on to Madam Gallant, please.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

To the witness, you made mention of the tracking system, that you had looked at it and there weren't any other entries for this particular incident.

Is that the way they're shown in this tracking system? Could you see chronologically? How would you even know that the incident had previously been reported or not reported?

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

Without getting into too much detail about how the incident was reported to me, it was not only reported to me, but it was reported to me that this chief petty officer was put in charge of the investigation. Correspondence was sent to me about the conduct of what he was investigating and how he was going to be investigating it.

There was no reference to a file in the OPHTAS being created. If I log in to the Operation Honour tracking system, I wouldn't necessarily be able to look into other people's because it is very compartmentalized to protect information.

From what I understand in my current knowledge is that my report was the only report. Simply based on the conversations I had with senior formation officers and public servants, it was my report in Operation Honour that I was reprimanded and minimized for. That led to the fact that nobody else had reported this in Operation Honour—only I did.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

If there's any time, I will share it with Ms. Alleslev.

Who else has access to that reporting system besides you? You said it's compartmentalized. Can each individual who logs into it only see what he or she logs, or can people see what other people log?

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

The way the system is designed, from what I understand—and again there are probably people who can better explain it—I have to sign in using my public key infrastructure card and it's then authenticated. I can only see investigations or complaints that have to do with my unit. I may also be able to view something if there's a respondent in another unit, say at CFB Halifax. I wouldn't be able to see their file, but I could potentially see a respondent pending on postings or something like that. It's not like I can look into another unit's files.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

It's your unit and then whoever is commanding various units. Would the person higher above be able to log in to any.... Maybe you don't know.

Could somebody conceivably use one of those cards to log in and see what's happening in every unit underneath them?

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

There are designated OPHTAS users. There are the unit users and then there are L2s—the regional commander on this coast—and then the L1, which is the navy. They have designated users as well. Yes, they can see what's under their purview, because they need to be able to control the information flow and brief commanders on how files are progressing, and for analytics.

You can't simply take one of these cards and pop it into the system. There are additional verification factors that go along with those cards. You can't just grab one, pop it in the system and away you go.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Do you know if there are any audits done? Can somebody track who else has logged in to the different parts of the database? There must also be some auditing or reporting system to check to see who has logged on and looked.

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

That's well above my pay grade to answer that question.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

The agency responsible for that database, is it the CFNIS? Is it the military police? Who is in charge of that? Who is responsible for maintaining that, and its integrity?

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

From what I understand, the ultimate report and analytics database is at L0 level, at the chief of the defence staff office. It's then delegated to each L1 to have their own system, and then further delegated to the L2s. Ultimately, it's the chief of the defence staff.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

We will now move to Ms. Vandenbeld.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I have a short comment to the committee regarding the issue of Ms. Armstrong.

She is, in fact, the chief of staff to the departmental assistant, which is under the deputy minister. It is typical in this committee that the deputy minister would come here and speak for departmental staff. We're very fortunate that in a few minutes we will have the deputy minister, so I would imagine that those questions could potentially be posed to her.

Finally, to Lieutenant-Commander Trotter, you are exemplary of the best of the Canadian Armed Forces. Your testimony today was very courageous. On behalf of all members of this committee, I want to thank you very much for being an ally, for your service and for coming here today.

[LCdr Raymond Trotter]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

I am going to reiterate what Ms. Vandenbeld said, as well as what most of the members here have said. We thank you for the courage it took to come here and for your commitment to making the Canadian Forces an even better place to work, Lieutenant-Commander. We very much appreciate it.

If there are no objections, we will suspend.