National Defence Committee on March 12th, 2021

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I thank the minister for being here today. Let me reassure him that the answer to any questions I ask today will not be something about what the ombudsman did or did not do.

The committee is seeking accountability for what the government did or did not do to make sure that women can serve equally in the Canadian Armed Forces.

We have made some progress in the hearings that we've held. We do know, today, that in 2018, both you, Mr. Minister, and the Prime Minister knew that there were allegations of sexual misconduct against the chief of the defence staff, and neither of you took any effective action on those allegations.

You're telling us today that your reason for not taking action was that you referred the complaint to the appropriate independent investigating authority. Mr. Minister, do you seriously think that we will accept that the Privy Council Office, which reports to the Prime Minister and has no investigative capacity whatsoever on its staff, was in any way an appropriate investigating authority?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

As I stated, the ombudsman is independent of the chain of command to conduct investigations. In this case here, in his own directives as ombudsman, the ombudsman had the option of where to get the appropriate advice.

In this case here, the information was passed to PCO for the one very important reason that we took this very seriously, because Governor in Council appointments are conducted at PCO. They followed up with him the very next day to give any further advice that might be needed by the appropriate people who deal with Governor in Council appointments.

Having said this, absolutely not, it is inappropriate for any of us to be involved in any investigation.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

The Privy Council Office is neither an investigating authority nor independent. That is the key point here.

I want to turn to the part of Mr. Walbourne's testimony that you have actually confirmed today, and this is that you refused to look at the evidence he was presenting on the accusations of serious sexual misconduct against the chief of the defence staff.

You refused to look at that information. I have tried, for the life of me, to figure out why you would not look at that. There was no investigation taking place at that time. What could the possible reasons be?

I'm going to suggest there are two possible reasons. One is that you didn't want to see the evidence of misconduct against General Vance because you have a long personal, professional and career relationship with the general. The second possibility is that you did not want to see the evidence because, as Major Brennan has told the media, knowledge of General Vance's sexual misconduct allegations was widespread among the senior leadership.

Did you not want to see this evidence because you were afraid you knew what was there?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, let me answer this very directly.

Please do not allow any other member to define my experience or my service in the Canadian Armed Forces. I don't like other men telling me what my experience was like.

I can assure you, and I am sorry to get angry about this, that I would go after anybody, regardless of rank or position, if allegations were brought forward.

The reason...and you said the investigation was not started. I disagree. When the ombudsman receives a complaint, the process has started. For me to accept any information at that time is interference in the investigation.

I am sorry, Madam Chair, but please don't have this member define my experience in the Canadian Armed Forces or what it was like. I would not do it about what happened in your life either, okay? I'm sorry. I've had many people, many white men, trying to tell me what my experience is.

Right now, I want to talk about the women and what better we can do for them.

Please don't do that, Mr. Garrison, to me.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Well, Mr. Minister, I said nothing about your honourable service in the Canadian Forces, nothing whatsoever. What I asked you about today—

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

You said that I was hiding something because of service.

Please don't do that. Don't define my experience in the Canadian Armed Forces.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Not because of service....

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

You have no idea what my life was in the Canadian Armed Forces.

Thank you.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

With respect, Mr. Minister, I'm asking about why you did not look at the evidence, and you have given us no reason for not looking at the evidence, other than to continue to spin this line about the ombudsman.

It is not true that once the ombudsman gets a complaint he starts an investigation. That's simply not a fact. Ombudsmen quite often do not investigate things that come to their office because they don't have the authority.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

How? Please explain. If you can explain how that's supposed to work—

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

If they don't have the authority, then they do not investigate. How it's supposed to work—

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

The ombudsman has the ability, then, as I stated, in their own directives, given to them when the ombudsman office was set up, to go to the judge advocate general for advice, who can give advice, or to go to the provost marshal. Nowhere does it say the Minister of National Defence, and for a very good reason, because no politician should ever be part of an investigation.

I can assure you, not having been involved in any investigation.... I don't know what the information was, nor should I, because I don't know what it is. If I take a chance, there's an actual chance I might inadvertently make a mistake and disrupt the just cause that might come from that.

I'm sorry, but when it comes to investigations, I haven't conducted investigations. I made that call at that time and it was a right call not to intervene with an investigation but to make sure that it was followed up by the appropriate authorities.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

With respect, Mr. Minister, the defence act does give you the responsibility. You say that you couldn't use a board of inquiry because it would have involved potential criminal charges or potential code of service violations, but when you hadn't looked at the information, you couldn't possibly have known that.

The only way you could know that it was not a course of action open to you was to have actually considered the evidence, not investigate the evidence but consider the evidence that the ombudsman tried to present to you because he did not have the authority to proceed further.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Mr. Garrison, with all due respect, there were many options available to the ombudsman, and more importantly, as it was, when it was passed on to PCO for the appropriate people to give the appropriate advice, they would have told him. There are many things that could have been done.

I'm not here to speculate. What I can only do is to make sure that any allegation that comes forward is immediately looked at, and that's exactly what we did.

I can assure you, for one thing, that I don't care about the position or the rank of any individual. I care about the people who have been impacted and I want to make sure that they get the just outcome.

That is why, when I was serving, it was my focus, while I was serving in the police, and why, right now, as Minister of National Defence, it has been my number one priority from day one.

When we put people as chapter one of the defence policy, the reason that was done was to focus on this, to tell the entire chain of command, the entire structure, that everything that you do must be focused on them: the change in policy, the resources and how you rout out this behaviour.

Here's the thing, though. I know how much you care and I've seen the passion you have, but you also know my passion as well. We want to improve our processes. We have a lot more work to do and we will get it done.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much.

We'll go on to Madam Alleslev, please.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much.

Minister, who does the CDS report to?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

The chief of the defence staff reports to me, as Minister of National Defence.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Who does the ombudsman report to?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

The ombudsman provides reports to me.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Do military members deserve a chief of the defence staff who behaves in accordance with the code of service discipline?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Absolutely.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

That's excellent.

Who is legally accountable to ensure that the CDS behaves in accordance with the code of service discipline?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

You can't....

Madam Chair, when it comes to allegations, as the Minister of National Defence, I do not investigate. They need to go to the appropriate authorities.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Who is ultimately accountable? Who do we look to to make sure that the chief of the defence staff behaves in accordance with the code of service discipline?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

My job is to make sure that everybody....