Evidence of meeting #23 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Denise Preston  Executive Director, Sexual Misconduct Response Centre, Department of National Defence
Wayne D. Eyre  Acting Chief of the Defence Staff, Department of National Defence
Geneviève Bernatchez  Judge Advocate General, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence
Jody Thomas  Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
Gregory Lick  Ombudsman, Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces
Michael Wernick  As an Individual

3:20 p.m.

Ombudsman, Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces

Gregory Lick

My experience since I first started is that I have not had any issues with meeting with the minister. Obviously, the minister is a very busy person, with a department the size of the Canadian Armed Forces and the Department of National Defence. That's a given. My experience is that I have not had any issues. When I've requested a meeting with the minister, I have not had any problems getting one.

3:20 p.m.

Bloc

Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC

When you started your job, did you hear from or at least get briefings from your predecessor? Did you have any contact with him to prepare for the position?

For example, did he talk to you about any difficulties with the sexual misconduct cases being discussed, or about relationships with the Privy Council Office or the Minister of Defence?

3:20 p.m.

Ombudsman, Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces

Gregory Lick

Just before I started, Ms. Hynes, along with the management team, briefed me on the general responsibilities of the ombudsman's office, what types of investigations were being carried out at the time, the structure of the office and the management of the office. It was a very quick briefing, because I had to go to committee to be a witness on another committee just after that, but it gave me a very brief general overview of what the office was doing at the time and how it was structured—the budget, the structure and so on.

There were no issues raised at that point with respect to any sexual misconduct allegations.

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

All right. Thank you very much.

Next is Mr. Garrison, please.

3:20 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I want to go back to Mr. Wernick and his discussion of tenure of the chief of the defence staff. My understanding is that the appointment for the chief of the defence staff is open-ended, in the sense that it doesn't have a specific term.

You made reference to discussions with the minister about what that term should be, and it appears that General Vance served longer than most chiefs of the defence staff. Can you comment on this concept of what an appropriate term would be and what is done about extending or shortening the term of the chief of the defence staff?

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

You're on mute, Mr. Wernick.

3:20 p.m.

As an Individual

Michael Wernick

That seems to be the saying of 2021. I apologize.

I stand to be corrected, but my understanding is exactly yours: that the appointment made by the Harper government in 2015 was open-ended. In other words, there never was a question of extending it. He would continue in office until someone said, “That's it, we're going to have a change of command”, reverse-engineer from that date and start a succession process. In 2018, at the time we've been talking about, the general had been in his office for three years. The convention was four or five.

I think if you look it up, you'll see that some were four and some were five. If you do the math on it, that meant he would come up at four or five years in 2019 or 2020. With a fixed election date and a no-fly zone in the fall of 2019 on major appointments, it effectively meant that a decision had to be made as to whether he was going to be a four-year guy or a five-year guy. Was the process of change of command going to take place before the election or after the election? That was the basic sort of.... There was never an extension, and the promotion that he got from DM 2 to DM 3 was way back in 2017, after two years in office.

The issue of tenure was whether the government should pick a date for a change of command and start a search process for the next person. That was the gist of the advice and the content of the note that I sent—that the Privy Council Office sent—to the Prime Minister regarding General Vance in early July 2018. It had two things in it. One was the recommended rating for 2017-18, which I'm happy to talk about. Then it raised the issue of tenure and offered the Prime Minister the choice: Do you want to take this on in 2019 or in 2020?

By that time, the issue of the general's interest in the NATO position was a factor, and also what was starting to become a very rapid turnover in the senior ranks of the military, and I'm happy to talk about that as well.

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Thank you very much.

3:25 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

And that was the main—

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

I'm sorry.

Mrs. Gallant, go ahead, please.

3:25 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Mr. Wernick, upon learning there was an allegation against General Vance, did you review his personnel file held at PCO that would have listed previous investigations of him?

3:25 p.m.

As an Individual

Michael Wernick

I don't believe there was a personnel file of that nature at the Privy Council Office. You would have to ask Ms. Sherman about that, but, no, I did not review any personnel file.

3:25 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Were the allegations against General Vance ever raised in a meeting with staff of both the PCO and the PMO? Just a yes or no is okay.

3:25 p.m.

As an Individual

Michael Wernick

I don't know what conversations took place among members of the Prime Minister's political staff. There would have been conversations between Janine Sherman and some of the staff in the PMO.

3:25 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

In total, how many individuals would have been aware of the allegations against General Vance?

3:25 p.m.

As an Individual

Michael Wernick

I can't know the answer to that.

3:25 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Did you ever provide the Prime Minister's Office with options regarding the allegations against General Vance that were brought to the PCO and the PMO's attention? Just a yes or no is okay.

3:25 p.m.

As an Individual

Michael Wernick

I don't recall whether we did or not. I understand from one of the media reports that Ms. Sherman did draft a note about the process issues around an investigation. I read that in one of the media reports.

3:25 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

What options did you provide to the office?

3:25 p.m.

As an Individual

Michael Wernick

I did not provide them. I think Ms. Sherman spoke to somebody, I presume Mr. Marques, in the Prime Minister's Office.

3:25 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Why would the chief of staff of the Prime Minister go to the Clerk of the Privy Council instead of the national security adviser?

3:25 p.m.

As an Individual

Michael Wernick

I'm sorry. I don't understand.

3:25 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Why would the chief of staff, Elder Marques, go to—

3:25 p.m.

As an Individual

Michael Wernick

No. He was not the chief of staff. He was one of the officers. The chief of staff to the Prime Minister is Katie Telford.

3:25 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Okay. So why would Elder have gone to the clerk, instead of the NSA?